Compulsory use of Full Body Scanners in SYD and MEL

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I'm anti-false information about radiation. Not pro-scanner.

Ok - apologies.

But I will stand by my position that radiation safety is not a reason to reject the scanners in use in Australia. There is no coughulative effect from this type of radiation.

My basic point is I will try to avoid as much radiation as possible...yes I know there is radiation everywhere but this is something that should be opt out. I even hate getting x-rays :-|
 
A relative asked to opt out in USA and was subject to VERY invasive screening. Don't recommend it!

In the US I always ask for an opt out and sometimes I have to wait for a officer to do the pat down I have had nothing but courteous and polite TSA agents, they explain eveything they
are about to do and even manage and laugh with them. I always approach it with a positive attitude a smile and a joke and I'm then free to go and head off to the lounge.
 
On Dec 19th I was selected. I was rather mad, but didn't want to kick up a fuss to get out of it. I found the staff rather annoying.
 
My basic point is I will try to avoid as much radiation as possible...yes I know there is radiation everywhere but this is something that should be opt out. I even hate getting x-rays :-|

My point is that while x-rays do have a coughulative lifetime risk. RF at low levels doesn't. So avoiding it isn't saving anything.
 
A few obvious points...

The gov is trying to explain here how it works, and does not give a specific answer. The real answer to the question is open to interpretation by the reader. In other questions in this FAQ, they straight out say "Yes" or "No" to questions. By not going either way in the answer proves that they don't want to be liable IF there is proof that there are issues with this tech in the future.
Airport Body Scanners—Frequently Asked Questions

Additionally, this is how the TSA treated the backscatter machines (which have been removed from all airports because of serious health concerns) - Public misled on dangers of airport body scanners, watchdog says

These are not the ones used in Australia, however given the lax testing by independent organisations, how can anyone really trust ANYTHING the manufacturer or the government or a related body says?

The technology is just far too new to know how this will affect humans long term, and this is one thing we all have control over and one that we need the choice to have. Anyone who wants to use the body scanners is welcome to trust the technology, but I (and I suspect the largest majority of members here) would rather the option to opt out until there is more evidence in 10-20 years time.
Exactly. They don't say "yes" its safe - they skirt around it by saying it's "10,000 times less than a mobile".
 
Exactly. They don't say "yes" its safe - they skirt around it by saying it's "10,000 times less than a mobile".

I'd have to say that it would give me some satisfaction for someone to actually put their stamp down and say that this is "safe". I don't expect them to say 'zero risk' but "safe" would be adequate (i.e. based on their learned opinion of the risks involved and the degrees of those risks). You could then hold that as an indelible record that can be used against said authority if later the technology proves to be unsafe (just as the architect and engineer who approves a building can be held for negligence if said building collapses).

My guess is that the second phrase is definitely a legal dodge. Can't quite blame them - all over the world scientists and the like are pretty nervous since anything which, even with best intentions, method and evidence, they do can still result in their being prosecuted (i.e. take the case of the Italian seismologists who were found guilty of negligence).

That said, I do feel that whilst the technology may not be necessarily unsafe, it was rushed rather quickly compared to many other things (even outside the medical field) which can impact on the health and well-being of people, for apparently little improvement of other risks (viz. security; in this case not necessarily the effectiveness but the efficiency).
 
Exactly. They don't say "yes" its safe - they skirt around it by saying it's "10,000 times less than a mobile".

Is talcum powder safe? Because this "stuff" has the same classification international. The only difference is that the scientists don't know and tell people they don't know, which leaves them with comparative risks. Meanwhile antis use that honesty to suck in people with logically fallacy like this, while ignoring the fact that it is impossible to ever demonstrate an effect at such low levels even if it exists.

Clearly there are so many people out there who have no concept of perspective when it comes to risk. Like people who send customers home to return the next day to avoid a theoretical risk of 1 in 100000 but totally ignore the 1 in 1000 risk to the customers in driving and having to travel double.
 
Is talcum powder safe? Because this "stuff" has the same classification international. The only difference is that the scientists don't know and tell people they don't know, which leaves them with comparative risks. Meanwhile antis use that honesty to suck in people with logically fallacy like this, while ignoring the fact that it is impossible to ever demonstrate an effect at such low levels even if it exists.

To be honest, talcum powder is lucky in that it has been around for a while; in fact, it has traversed the long period before risk evaluation of consumer products was actually important (i.e. if talcum powder killed someone, I highly doubt the company who made it would have been taken to court in those days - you might get an apology. Not so these days.)

Seeing as talcum powder has been used so much these days, that's your "testing" that it is 'safe'. The curse of the new technology is of course there isn't the sample size of real world testing, which is why lab testing is more important but that said - easier said than done. Of course, if someone were to eat talcum powder, or if kids were to play around with it (i.e. create "snow") and die of asphyxiation, you could make up a fallacy by saying there is an incident where talcum powder caused death (and it did) and thus it is unsafe. Last time I checked I'm not sure whether there was advice on a bottle of talcum powder that said that it was an asphyxiation risk.

No doubt, however, if a talcum powder caused the death of someone, the manufacturer of that powder would be facing criminal negligence charges.

Clearly there are so many people out there who have no concept of perspective when it comes to risk.

There are people who clearly take the notion that "some risk" is equivalent to "too much risk" (i.e. unsafe). I think realistically it's only engineers who understand that you can never have zero risk, unless you eliminate the source of the risk (however, eliminating risks is clearly not productive all the time). So the real dispute then is really what constitutes an acceptable level of risk - that is not clearly defined (there are experimental guidelines, e.g. in research and its differing branches) and open for debate.

In the statistical parlance, basically the argument everyone is opening fire over are the Type I and Type II errors.
 
To be honest, talcum powder is lucky in that it has been around for a while; in fact, it has traversed the long period before risk evaluation of consumer products was actually important (i.e. if talcum powder killed someone, I highly doubt the company who made it would have been taken to court in those days - you might get an apology. Not so these days.)

Seeing as talcum powder has been used so much these days, that's your "testing" that it is 'safe'. The curse of the new technology is of course there isn't the sample size of real world testing, which is why lab testing is more important but that said - easier said than done. Of course, if someone were to eat talcum powder, or if kids were to play around with it (i.e. create "snow") and die of asphyxiation, you could make up a fallacy by saying there is an incident where talcum powder caused death (and it did) and thus it is unsafe. Last time I checked I'm not sure whether there was advice on a bottle of talcum powder that said that it was an asphyxiation risk.

No doubt, however, if a talcum powder caused the death of someone, the manufacturer of that powder would be facing criminal negligence charges.

The issue is that no one says RF radiation is safe because it has this classification of we don't know so we won't say it's safe just in case. This is the same as talcum powder and a whole heap of other things. If people were serious about their convictions then there are a whole heap of other things they must also avoid. BTW RF/microwaves have been around for a very long time.
 
Were I to invoke logic, however, logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
 
I would also add that I'm not banging on about type 1 and type 2 errors, although there seems to be a couple of academics who are hung up on the point. My position is far more practical. Despite the risk classification the fact is there is no mechanism for harm at low levels of exposure and exposure to NIR is no coughulative.

Then there is a comparative risk benefit analysis. Without an absolutely harm factor comparison remains. The fact that the exposure is 10000 times less than a mobile phone is highly relevant. Whatever benefit is gain from the scanners can then be 10000 times smaller than the benefit of a mobile. So we are moving from an individual benefit of I can get help in an emergency to a benefit for all of society and not the individual.

This is the sort of thing that is done all the time and I don't think it is limited to engineers. I've written 20 reports this year that outline the benefit required for a proposed ionising radiation exposure. The OP himself has done a risk benefit analysis for ionising radiation. There is potentially a significant ionising radiation exposure due to the installation of a pacemaker. Clearly the benefits to the OP were greater than the resulting risk, the radiation exposure was justified.

Now as I said Australia has developed a methodology for justifying use of these machines. In that context I will only note that we decided not to use the X-ray based version. I have no idea why that is, but I have certainly draw a conclusion.
 
So I've read all ten pages and I want to know if mm-wave radiation is safer than getting on a large metal tube and being hurled at the ground at 400kts :)

Or how about: are they safer than everyones seeming absolute need to turn their mobiles on asap whilst still inside said metal tube?
 
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"Today at Sydney I was selected for one of these full body scans."


Regardless of the effectiveness or even the health issues with body scanners the public should have the civil right to opt out. It seems the government is increasingly dictatorial and THAT is a slippery slope
. No one should be forced to under go a procedure if they choose not to but to say "do it or else" means we have now lost what little civil liberties we had left.
 
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Perhaps the reason no-one else opted out is because the rest of us don't care.

It's not about ignorance... It's just that we see it as no more harmful than many other things in daily life and we recognize it as a necessary part of secure traveling.

1/ I respect the wish to opt out on medical concerns in the OP's post.
There probably should be some kind of opt-out option for the small number of legitimate medical concerns.

2/ Please stop carrying on about it being an "infringement of your civil rights" that you can not opt out. You can! You can choose not to fly. Maybe me not being able to bring weapons or explosives onto a plane is an infringement of my civil rights??? Of course not! I have to accept that if I want to fly - then I must submit to security screening as deemed necessary by the authorities.
They're not forcing me to do it - remember you can always catch the bus (or boat).

3/ I hadn't paid attention to the differences between the US and Australia.

Medhead - are you saying that the US ones "are" harmful?

4/ I respect some of my fellow AFFs are more qualified on this topic, and I respect those of you with a more cautious view of them.

But for me - I'm happy to go through them - especially if the line is shorter ;)

Now the bigger concern..... Why is there no Taittinger here???
 
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I'm living in Chiang Mai at the moment and have been visiting the airport for various reasons about once a week.

You can't even enter the building without going through a metal detector. They have an X Ray machine for items of luggage but you're allowed to walk through the metal detector with all the paraphenalia that you usually put in a tray. This always results in me setting off the detector and getting a wanding and pat down by an attractive young woman in uniform. I love it :p

Sounds like no problem to me
 
3/ I hadn't paid attention to the differences between the US and Australia.

Medhead - are you saying that the US ones "are" harmful?

:oops: only just saw this. We may have discussed this a few days before you posted the question. ;) Current international recommendations related to the safety of ionising radiation are based on the premise that any amount of ionising radiation is harmful. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no harm at very low levels and even at much higher but still environmental levels. However, there simply is no way to know and determine what the case may be.

I've banded about a figure of 10 million as the number of subjects needed to statistically show an effect of ionising radiation. During the discussion we had on the 22nd it was suggested that much lower numbers would be needed if a highly controlled study was done, that excluded other risk factors. I'm sorry but I got sidetracked on that point and didn't get back to it. The 10 million I quote was actually calculated for controlled studies of low dose radiation on mice. So the numbers required for humans is probably much larger. I'm very sorry to have been unclear on this point, well other than a stupidly large number of subjects is required.

The final think that was mentioned was perception. Now I agreed there might be a perception issue for some people. Something that I haven't clearly stated in thread. (fair enough) However, perception does not make these things unsafe. Now I lean towards agreeing that perception is reality, but that still doesn't mean the reality isn't wrong.
 
My point is that while x-rays do have a coughulative lifetime risk. RF at low levels doesn't. So avoiding it isn't saving anything.

Hi

I've found this thread very interesting and you obviously have professional knowledge on the subject.

You've made the above quote, or words to the same effect, a number of times, always about lack of coughulative effects of RF at low freq. But what about the case of numerous repeated exposures increasing risk? As in: if you go through these scanners 5 times a day every day you would incur a (?? statistically significant ??) higher risk of an adverse effect?

I'm not arguing against your position - just asking about repeated doses rather than coughulative effects.

Personally, I don't give a toss about full body scanners - just another necessary inconvenience. But an absolute blanket 'no exection' rule (if that's hat comes about) would be ludicrous IMHO.
 
I came across an interesting paper today and thought of this thread immediately. The article is:

Wi-Fi and Health: Review of Current Status of Research, Foster, Kenneth R.[SUP]*[/SUP]; Moulder, John E.[SUP]†, [/SUP]Health Physics, Issue: Volume 105(6), December 2013, p 561–575

It is focussed on Wi-Fi and in particular to do with wifi exposure in schools. It does however summarise the findings ambient RF exposure measurements from multiple sources, i.e. FM, TV, DECT phones, wifi, mobile base stations and other mobile phone users. In broad terms wifi has the lowest exposure levels and mobile phone uplink from other people making phones calls (the exposed person is not making the phone call) has the highest.

It also mentions that wifi levels in a class room with mixed use was limited by the capability of the wired network behind the routers to carry the data. It also made the point that wifi networks have protocols in place so that only one device transmits at any one time.

Millimeter wave scanners used in Australia are advertised as having exposure
to less electromagnetic energy than from a short mobile phone call
http://www.arpansa.gov.au/pubs/factsheets/029is_airportscreening.pdf

Anyway, as per the health part of the title of the paper in Health Physics there is a detailed outline of the effects of RF exposure. It makes for very interesting reading.

The paper tells us that there have been a vast number of studies into possible biological effects since the 1950s and even earlier. Exclude from the database are studies from the former soviet union and warsaw pact countries.

The possible biological effects of RF energy have been investigated by numerous investigators since the 1950s or even before, and now a massive literature exists on the subject. The IEEE ICES database (http://ieee-emf.com/studysearch.cfm) currently lists 4,408 studies of varying relevance covering the range 300 kHz–300 GHz, going back to the late 1950s

The authors state:

The overwhelming consensus of these reviews is that present evidence does not show the existence of health hazards from exposures below present limits (ICNIRP or IEEE).

It is pretty unequivocal.

They do talk about the classification in 2011 by the International Agency for Research on Cancer of RF as a "possible" human carcinogen, group 2B.

According to the decision rules employed by IARC, this indicates some level of suspicion of carcinogenicity with insufficient evidence to conclude that RF fields are “probable” (group 2B) or “known” carcinogens (group A). The IARC decision was based on “limited evidence” for human carcinogenicity based on epidemiology data, “limited evidence” from long-term animal studies, and “weak mechanistic” evidence (Baan et al. 2011).

So there is limited evidence for carcinogenicity in humans and animals and there is weak evidence of a mechanism for an effect.

Onto the question of mechanism for effect, the mechanism for effect has been study since the early 20th century. Which pretty much deals with the claim that RF radiation effects are too new to understand the full consequences.

The biophysical mechanisms of interaction between RF energy and biological systems have been studied intensively since early in the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century. Classic studies by physicists and biophysicists such as Peter Debye (1884–1966) (on electrically induced forces on molecular dipoles), K. S. Cole (1900–1984) (on electrical properties of cells at RFs to study membrane characteristic), and Herman Schwan (1915–2005) (on interactions between RF fields and tissues and cells to address a variety of scientific and health-related issues) provided the theoretical understanding of the interaction of RF fields with biological systems.

The only unequivocal mechanism for
bioeffects of RF energy at realistic exposure levels in the low-GHz frequency range involves heating of tissue

Non-heat related mechanisms for effect have been established and explored theoretically.

However, quantitative analysis shows that very high field levels (which would be very hazardous thermally) would be needed to produce biologically observable effects through these mechanisms.

So to cause a non-heating effect also requires a heating effect. You'll get burnt from the RF before other effects can be observed via other mechanisms. Other mechanisms are also ruled out because the theories do not produce quantitative predictions or because the perturbations produced at realistic exposure levels would be swamped by random thermal agitation.

I'll leave it to the authors to summarise about a mechanism:

“Impossibility” arguments are difficult to sustain in biology; but the lack of a generally-accepted mechanism by which low-level (below ICNIRP and IEEE limits) RF fields in the GHz frequency range could produce biological effects, after many years of sustained efforts to uncover such mechanisms, makes it increasingly unlikely that any mechanism will be found.

The authors then go on to talk about the effects of wifi exposure and in particular note the weakness of the studies and the inconsistent results.

They make an interesting statement that is equally applicable to internet concerns about the health effects of airport body scanners:

Nevertheless, despite the apparent weaknesses of the studies, the reported effects from Wi-Fi exposures have been invoked widely on the Internet to justify claims of hazard from the technology, even as they have been given little weight in risk assessments by health agencies and expert groups.

The lack of a mechanism for harm and the general lack of studies showing an effect for other RF exposure makes me conclude that body scanners are the next unfounded internet worry.


Hi

I've found this thread very interesting and you obviously have professional knowledge on the subject.

You've made the above quote, or words to the same effect, a number of times, always about lack of coughulative effects of RF at low freq. But what about the case of numerous repeated exposures increasing risk? As in: if you go through these scanners 5 times a day every day you would incur a (?? statistically significant ??) higher risk of an adverse effect?

I'm not arguing against your position - just asking about repeated doses rather than coughulative effects.

Personally, I don't give a toss about full body scanners - just another necessary inconvenience. But an absolute blanket 'no exection' rule (if that's hat comes about) would be ludicrous IMHO.

A coughulative effect really is about multiple exposures for ionising radiation. The coughulative effect would cover the situation of going in 5 times a day. But as per the above quick summary there is a lack of a mechanism for effect for RF exposure. (beyond thermal effects).
 
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