Churning - when the golden goose stops laying

[Mr H]

I started churning in earnest towards the end of 2021. I had switched around credit cards a little before then, but since 2021 I have been visiting each card for as long as it takes to open, hit the target and then close. In that time, I had had a couple of rejections, but most cards have been churned twice.

At the risk of oversharing, I earn $175,000, I have a mortgage on my home, I have no dependents and an excellent credit rating (according to Equifax). I got rejected for a Virgin Money card and Citibank ready credit at the end of last year, and I have recently been rejected by Amex.

Have I reached the end of the road? Am I going to get rejected for all the other cards too? If so, would I be better off trying anyway or sitting out for a while - and if the latter, then how long?

I'd welcome advice from others who may have been in this situation, or who have had success in serious churning for more than two rinses of each card.

 

[Human]

I’d be very surprised if you‘ve hit the end of the road. I’ve been churning since about 2017. I don’t churn AmEx because I don’t want to lose my grandfathered Platinum card benefits which are no longer available to new cardholders. But I’ve churned NAB, Westpac, ANZ, Qantas Money and Virgin Money at least twice each, and up to once per year.

I am fairly conservative in my applications, however, and generally don’t apply for more than 3 new cards per year. I also always apply for the lowest possible credit limit. The higher the credit limit you apply for, the more likely it is that you’ll be rejected.

I do get rejected occasionally but I don’t see it as a big deal: it’s part of the churning game. I won’t apply for the card again until at least 6 months after the rejection. But several times I’ve had an application for a card rejected, only to have it approved six months later.

If I were in your position I’d give churning a break for 6 months or so to give your credit score a bit of time to recover, and then I’d jump back in.

 

[Mr H]

I also always apply for the lowest possible credit limit. The higher the credit limit you apply for, the more likely it is that you’ll be rejected.

I have wondered about this. I do apply for low limits but I had heard a whisper that this is a red flag - credit card companies want to give you higher limits.

If I were in your position I’d give churning a break for 6 months or so to give your credit score a bit of time to recover, and then I’d jump back in.

I may give it a break, but the problem is not my credit score, which is excellent. My Equifax report does, though, show lots of timelines that illustrate in glorious technicolor that each line of credit was open for only two to three months before it was closed.

 

[Human]

I have wondered about this. I do apply for low limits but I had heard a whisper that this is a red flag - credit card companies want to give you higher limits.

On the one hand, it’s just about impossible to know what goes on ”behind closed doors” when the banks and CC companies are deciding whether or not to approve an application.

On the other hand, we do know the law: banks and CC companies must not approve cards when they have reason to believe the credit limit applied for has the potential to cause financial distress.

Given the statutory requirements that the banks must abide by, it follows that, on balance and all else being equal, applications with lower credit limits have a greater chance of being approved than applications for higher credit limits.

 

[CaptJCool]

So why would the banks not “slam the door shut” On short term churning ?

What are The upfront points offers intended to achieve ? Mid term loyalty ?

I get why people appreciate the ability to “make hay while the sunshines” but it didn’t seem to be a sustainable business practice to reward new customers while not giving bonuses to longer term customers

As it stands airlines like Qantas are now finding out how unrewarded their long term customers feel.

Earning points is clearly really really easy

Burning points is now almost an elusive unicorn experience

 

[levelnine]

Virgin Money is issued by Citibank, so you've only really been denied by two providers, one of which is going through a period of very conservative approvals (Amex).

Once you've been in the game long enough, you'll realise:
1. The game is unlikely to ever end because it is hugely profitable for everyone involved.
2. The game continues to evolve — what worked in the past may not work in the future. That doesn't mean the game is over.
3. Set backs are only temporary — take 6-12 months off churning if you think you're hitting a brick wall.
4. Credit providers are not a monolith — getting rejected from one or two doesn't mean you'll get rejected from all of them.

 

[andyrb]

Virgin Money is issued by Citibank,

I thought BOQ was behind Virgin Money?

 

[levelnine]

I thought BOQ was behind Virgin Money?

Citi/NAB for credit cards: 'Virgin Money Australia, a division of Bank of Queensland Limited ABN 32 009 656 740, Australian Credit Licence 244616 (“BOQ”), promotes and distributes the Virgin Money Credit Cards ("Credit Cards"). National Australia Bank Limited ABN 12 004 044 937 Australian Credit Licence 230686 (“NAB”) is the credit provider and issuer of the Credit Cards. NAB has acquired the business relating to these products from Citigroup Pty Ltd (ABN 88 004 325 080, AFSL and Australian Credit Licence 238098) (“Citi”) and has appointed Citi to assist to administer the Credit Cards. BOQ does not and will not guarantee or otherwise support NAB’s obligations under the contracts or agreements connected with the Credit Cards.'

One of the worst changes in the Australian market over the last few years has been the consolidation, especially with NAB buying Citi.

 

[oz_mark]

I thought BOQ was behind Virgin Money?

Credit cards are issues by Citi (now NAB)

Virgin Money Australia, a division of Bank of Queensland Limited ABN 32 009 656 740, Australian Credit Licence 244616 (“BOQ”), promotes and distributes the Virgin Money Credit Cards ("Credit Cards"). National Australia Bank Limited ABN 12 004 044 937 Australian Credit Licence 230686 (“NAB”) is the credit provider and issuer of the Credit Cards. NAB has acquired the business relating to these products from Citigroup Pty Ltd (ABN 88 004 325 080, AFSL and Australian Credit Licence 238098) (“Citi”) and has appointed Citi to assist to administer the Credit Card

 

[trendwhore]

AMEX likes to reject at random, don't feel too bad about it

 

[diamondhands]

I wouldn’t take the amex rejection to heart. They seem to be the harshest on churners at the moment.

As someone else said, virgin is Citi, so you’ve only really been rejected by Citi. In future try and be a bit more mindful of who is issuing the white label products.

 

[I love to travel]

Has anyone else noticed that Citi are taking a long time to assess applications. Suncorp application is now 3 days.

 

[levelnine]

Has anyone else noticed that Citi are taking a long time to assess applications. Suncorp application is now 3 days.

They seem to be a bit all over the place.

I've hit 3 different Citi cards in the last week or so. Virgin was next day approval. Citi Premier was two days. Suncorp is 3 days and waiting.

I saw someone say in a thread somewhere that they've been overwhelmed with Virgin Money applications, presumably before the annual fee increased, so that might be slowing them down.

 

[billmurray]

I've churned 20 cards since 2017, i don't think I've been rejected once.

HOWEVER

I re-applied for my AMEX Explorer card approx. 1.5years ago. When i opened it they offered for the full credit limit (maybe 30k) but i selected 5K. Approx. 6 months later i requested an increase to 10K, which was rejected. And rejected again approx. another 6 months after that. I only just received the approval approx. 4/5 months ago.

 

[Captain Halliday]

One factor to watch is that after the first rejection, questions on subsequent applications can compound the rejections.

In particular questions like “have you been declined credit in the last 3 years”, if answered truthfully likely subject your application to greater scrutiny.

It might also be sufficient to trigger a rejection, thus the compounding.

 

[Mattao]

I have a suggestion for you Mr H. A couple of years back, I had a couple of rejections. For the next 2 or 3 cards that followed, I went for the lower level cards eg. the ANZ qantas platinum which has only a $6k minimum credit limit and 75,000 points. After a couple of successful applications, I went back to the higher level cards. Managed 6 cards in the last 12 months

Don’t be afraid of rejection - it is part of the game!

 

[levelnine]

Problem I'm now having is I've run out of cards to apply for. Australian market is so limited. Once you hit ANZ (Qantas & non-Qantas), Amex, St George/BOM/BankSA, Westpac, Citi (Prestige & Premier), Suncorp, HSBC, NAB (Qantas & non-Qantas), Virgin Money, Commbank, Qantas Money & BankWest, you're on 12-18 month cooldowns.

Australia really needs more products.

 

[Mr H]

So I have just been approved for a Westpac Attitude Velocity Black - the golden goose lives on.

 

[dein_gesicht]

Problem I'm now having is I've run out of cards to apply for. Australian market is so limited. Once you hit ANZ (Qantas & non-Qantas), Amex, St George/BOM/BankSA, Westpac, Citi (Prestige & Premier), Suncorp, HSBC, NAB (Qantas & non-Qantas), Virgin Money, Commbank, Qantas Money & BankWest, you're on 12-18 month cooldowns.

Australia really needs more products.

Agreed, but I find it just enough time to start the process again. I don't church amex, but yes to everything else.

Post automatically merged: Mar 20, 2024

So I have just been approved for a Westpac Attitude Velocity Black - the golden goose lives on.

For a DP, I was rejected by NAB but then approved by St George the next week. Just keep grinding and churning

 

[Mr H]

For a DP, I was rejected by NAB but then approved by St George the next week. Just keep grinding and churning

Yes, I will. I was just a bit shaken by three consecutive refusals. This was my third Attitude card and a black one - I am not convinced that the colour of the card makes very much difference to acceptance/rejection. My next one will be the Bank of Melbourne/St George one so see how that goes after the Citi rejections.