Can you inherit FF points/miles?

[MEL_Traveller]

That is a separate issue to do with automatic cancellation on death of the member. You raised the possibility of fraud following non-notification. If a grieving relative forgets to notify the airline and then uses the points based clear instructions from the member, IMO that should not be considered fraud, especially if someone else is authorized by being given the pin. That doesn't undo the requirements that you've quoted or the possible consequences. But failure to notify and use of the points are separate issues.

No no... I didn't mention fraud on the basis of non-notification. I mentioned potential fraud on the basis of actually using the points.

Closure of the account following notification is a separate issue to the points automatically being cancelled on the death of the member. The points are cancelled on death - not on notification. A relative might want to take the extra step to notify QF to stop getting mail/emails/membership packs.

A member cannot authorise the transfer of cancelled points. They technically have nothing to transfer. (not that i agree with that, but some terms and conditions are so worded.)

 

[CMA222]

My family know not to notify anyone but family.....my will has an attached a4 with every online email, bank, Facebook, AFF, frequent flyer etc with instructions to drain my accounts....churning cards means it is updated regularly.

These FF program rules are contractual clauses and could be legally challenged if push ever came to shove. I have the same instructions in place and a similar list attached to my will with all account numbers and passwords/codes to allow any points to be utilised, most probably for prepaid debit cards, in the highly unlikely event I have not used them all myself prior to my demise. If the points balance is reduced to nil or almost nil the account will eventually self cancel through inactivity. The amounts involved will generally be so insignificant no normal airline would bother wasting scarce resources pursuing a breach of contract, in the unlikely event they became aware.

 

[medhead]

No no... I didn't mention fraud on the basis of non-notification. I mentioned potential fraud on the basis of actually using the points.

Closure of the account following notification is a separate issue to the points automatically being cancelled on the death of the member. The points are cancelled on death - not on notification. A relative might want to take the extra step to notify QF to stop getting mail/emails/membership packs.

A member cannot authorise the transfer of cancelled points. They technically have nothing to transfer. (not that i agree with that, but some terms and conditions are so worded.)

Yes and I'm saying it should not be fraud to use the points if the member has authorized the use of the points. The cancelation requirements do not make it fraudulent to use them, even if it is a breech of the conditions of the program and the consequences that exist such as canceling any bookings.

It is worth remembering that the points will exist when the authorization is given by the member. I guess the other pre-condition is that the authorization must not be conditional on the member being dead, because then they are using points that shouldn't exist. For example members says "I want you to book a flight with my points here is the pin". Then they die. Should notification not happen the points will still be in the account and it should not be fraud for the person to book a flight. Even if it is a breech of the program conditions. That is different to the member saying "here is my pin, when I die take my points".

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes and I'm saying it should not be fraud to use the points if the member has authorized the use of the points. The cancelation requirements do not make it fraudulent to use them, even if it is a breech of the conditions of the program and the consequences that exist such as canceling any bookings.

It is worth remembering that the points will exist when the authorization is given by the member. I guess the other pre-condition is that the authorization must not be conditional on the member being dead, because then they are using points that shouldn't exist. For example members says "I want you to book a flight with my points here is the pin". Then they die. Should notification not happen the points will still be in the account and it should not be fraud for the person to book a flight. Even if it is a breech of the program conditions. That is different to the member saying "here is my pin, when I die take my points".

there may still be some element of fraud.

even though you have been authorised to use them, the points have automatically been cancelled: there is nothing to use.

what you are then doing is indicating the account holder is still alive by conducting the transfer. this might be seen as trying to obtain advantage from the airline who has cancelled the points.

let's put it this way... if you are savvy enough to know you need to use the points ASAP after the death, and to 'not call' the airline to advise them of the death (at least until you have used the points), and you go to all the effort to make the points useable by providing PINs etc (whether or not it is allowed, or challengable) then you are also savvy enough to know the terms and conditions say you can't do it (because there is nothing to transfer).

i think the more interesting question is whether it could be challenged that points are cancelled.

 

[medhead]

there may still be some element of fraud.

even though you have been authorised to use them, the points have automatically been cancelled: there is nothing to use.

what you are then doing is indicating the account holder is still alive by conducting the transfer. this might be seen as trying to obtain advantage from the airline who has cancelled the points.

let's put it this way... if you are savvy enough to know you need to use the points ASAP after the death, and to 'not call' the airline to advise them of the death (at least until you have used the points), and you go to all the effort to make the points useable by providing PINs etc (whether or not it is allowed, or challengable) then you are also savvy enough to know the terms and conditions say you can't do it (because there is nothing to transfer).

i think the more interesting question is whether it could be challenged that points are cancelled.

The problem is the points are not cancelled until the airline is notified. There is physically something to use, the automatic cancellation is based on a manual intervention. The possibility of the airline retrospectively canceling a booking once they are notified does not mean the points aren't physically in the account until the airline closes it.

There is no need to be savvy. Grieving people who don't know the conditions of the program can forget to do things like notify the airline.

There is also no suggestion they are using the points as quickly as possible. "That's right they told me to book a fare, I guess I better do that".

I don't think it is fair to assume a savvy person trying to deceive.

I agree that is the more interesting question. I think the airlines are fairly confident in their position to suggest canceling can't be challenged. Unlike divorce their is probably no separate legislation that allows the points to be considered property.

 

[get me outta here]

My somewhat elderly mate who is not computer savvy knew for ages that his wife was about to die. When she did, almost immediately the QF points vanished. He thought they must have read all the papers to read all the death notices as no one had told QF.

So, what's the gen on how QF knew, a 'death' program Australia wide?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The problem is the points are not cancelled until the airline is notified.

No. That's not the way the terms and conditions are structured for Qantas.

The membership automatically cancels on the death of the member. And the points are cancelled at that point. Notice is irrelevant.

Notice is only relevant to the closure of the account (separate from membership terminating). As mentioned before, people might want to do in order to stop receiving mail.

As for the airlines 'being certain' they are correct... there are times when they get things wrong!

 

[dajop]

No. That's not the way the terms and conditions are structured for Qantas.

The membership automatically cancels on the death of the member. And the points are cancelled at that point. Notice is irrelevant.

It's a paradox, if the airline doesn't know the person is dead (ie not notified, by anyone, including employers) then how are are they going to cancel the points? It's one thing for an airline to automatically cancel membership upon notification of death, another for it to actively pursue in a legal sense people who have deliberately or inadvertently not told the airline of the members death and consumed the points in the meantime. Is it worth the airlines time and resources, let alone the bad PR to go after someone retrospectively?

I am sure technically it is fraud, but so is booking award flights for people who are technically not relatives, but that doesn't stop people, and the only instances I recall of QF going after people for doing so is where it is blatant, obvious and for commercial gain (such as blatantly selling the tickets).

 

[medhead]

No. That's not the way the terms and conditions are structured for Qantas.

The membership automatically cancels on the death of the member. And the points are cancelled at that point. Notice is irrelevant.

Notice is only relevant to the closure of the account (separate from membership terminating). As mentioned before, people might want to do in order to stop receiving mail.

As for the airlines 'being certain' they are correct... there are times when they get things wrong!

The condition cannot be physically actioned until the airline is notified. The membership is not physically cancelled unless the airline is notified about the death. As far as the airline is concerned the member is still alive until they are told they aren't. It is a paradox.

Sentence 3 of clause 8.3 Qantas loyalty will close the account on notification of the member's death. If they aren't notified the account will not be closed and the points will not be cancelled.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The condition cannot be physically actioned until the airline is notified. The membership is not physically cancelled unless the airline is notified about the death. As far as the airline is concerned the member is still alive until they are told they aren't. It is a paradox.

Sentence 3 of clause 8.3 Qantas loyalty will close the account on notification of the member's death. If they aren't notified the account will not be closed and the points will not be cancelled.

no medhead... with all due respect... and what you are not appreciating, is the difference between account closure, and termination of membership.

membership is terminated on the death of the member. qantas does not need to be notified of that. it is a fact that occurs, without anyone's action, on the death of the member. their account may still be open... but they are not a member. because they're dead.

their points are also cancelled at the same time as death. their account may still be 'open', but the points are cancelled.

there is no action required (other than the member dying) for the points to be cancelled. even if they are sitting in the account, they have been cancelled. they are just sitting there, but cannot be used (as per QF terms and conditions).

notification is irrelevant for all purposes other than account closure. and the points are already considered cancelled at the immediate time of death.

 

[medhead]

no medhead... with all due respect... and what you are not appreciating, is the difference between account closure, and termination of membership.

membership is terminated on the death of the member. qantas does not need to be notified of that. it is a fact that occurs, without anyone's action, on the death of the member. their account may still be open... but they are not a member. because they're dead.

their points are also cancelled at the same time as death. their account may still be 'open', but the points are cancelled.

there is no action required (other than the member dying) for the points to be cancelled. even if they are sitting in the account, they have been cancelled. they are just sitting there, but cannot be used (as per QF terms and conditions).

notification is irrelevant for all purposes other than account closure. and the points are already considered cancelled at the immediate time of death.

I understand all that. But you are missing the difference between the theoretical and the practical. In theory the conditions terminate the membership or whatever. But in practice those points can still be used if the airline isn't notified. Notification is required to effect (or affect, I always get it wrong) the termination. The conditions say as much. The theoretical termination is irrelevant if the points can still be used in practice. Termination only becomes relevant if the airline realise and if they try to cancel the use. And I'm certainly not saying the airline can't take whatever action they deem necessary to achieve the termination from the time of death. Just that they can't do that if they don't know.

It's a paradox: it is terminated and it isn't terminated all at the same time. I'm not even going to start on the question of whether the program conditions even apply to the hypothetical person using the points - they never agreed to the conditions.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

practical vs theory... but then presumably with the instructions left by the deceased is some warning 'do not notify the airline I have died before you use the points because otherwise they will be cancelled'.

so then the person using the points knows they are doing so against the terms and conditions. or worse, trying to obtain value from something to which they are not entitled.

again... I don't agree with the policy. I think it is mean, and a potential windfall to the company at the expense of the member.

 

[jastel]

Can see both sides of this...isn't there normally something in T&C saying don't tell anyone else or write down your PIN??
They may use that to void points or prove fraud...assuming they could be bothered.

 

[artemis]

Wow.

Next time I'm counselling a patient about resuscitation orders I better check that they've sorted out their points.

But surely most deaths have some prodromal event that would allow an power of attorney to transfer the points elsewhere? If people knew about this rule?

And I can't believe that someone hasn't described the points as having an expiration date of when one expires in this discussion!

 

[Foreigner]

Can Red Roo be asked to tell us what QF views are in relation to member's points following death?

 

[mannej]

Can Red Roo be asked to tell us what QF views are in relation to member's points following death?

Why? The T&C's are quite clear as to what QF and their views are.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why? The T&C's are quite clear as to what QF and their views are.

Indeed. Perhaps the more interesting question is 'why' any airline wants to immediately cancel points on the death of the member and not allow them to be transferred.

 

[medhead]

practical vs theory... but then presumably with the instructions left by the deceased is some warning 'do not notify the airline I have died before you use the points because otherwise they will be cancelled'.

so then the person using the points knows they are doing so against the terms and conditions. or worse, trying to obtain value from something to which they are not entitled.

again... I don't agree with the policy. I think it is mean, and a potential windfall to the company at the expense of the member.

A warning not to notify isn't required for the hypothetical I proposed. "Here's my pin get yourself a flight to fly to your new job". Heart attack, grief, funeral. "I need to get that flight and start my new job". Basically they have no idea about the conditions and are just acting according to their best judgement, with a massive disruption. A warning would, of course, change everything.

* the new job can be any reason.

I haven't actually stated my opinion about the policy at all. I'm just talking possibilities, not making a judgement.

 

[medhead]

Can Red Roo be asked to tell us what QF views are in relation to member's points following death?

I do not want to know that answer. It would limit my ability to operate according to my interpretation of the conditions and what the website allows me to do.

Not to mention this discussion is not just about Qantas but any airline.

 

[JohnK]

That is a separate issue to do with automatic cancellation on death of the member. You raised the possibility of fraud following non-notification. If a grieving relative forgets to notify the airline and then uses the points based clear instructions from the member, IMO that should not be considered fraud, especially if someone else is authorized by being given the pin. That doesn't undo the requirements that you've quoted or the possible consequences. But failure to notify and use of the points are separate issues.

I haven't given my membership details to anyone. Probably poor planning but I have 1.2 QFF Points. If I happen to die why should Qantas benefit from my death?

I am sorry medhead but just because it is written in the terms and conditions is not even remotely an adequate answer.

Proper notification of significant changes are in the terms and conditions as well but the airlines continue to break that condition anytime it suits them.