Buying Velocity points

[kangarooflyer88]

That link not loading for me - I am in Shanghai right now but wouldn’t have thought that is causing it

It appears the link I shared was broken. Here's a working link:

Velocity Frequent Flyer Points Booster

buy.points.com

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I always enjoy these conversations on the value of points.

One of the key considerations here is whether you'd be willing to pay cash for business class fares. If you would be willing to pay cash for business class, buying points at 1.4c/pt can represent good value — you're getting a discount in exchange for more limited availability.

If you'd never be willing to pay cash for business class, then it is bad value. You're paying more cash for airfares than you ordinarily would and you have to deal with all the restrictions of award availability.

Im with KF88 on this one.Plenty of folk won’t pay $8k for a business class ticket, but may well be prepared to pay $3k with points.

Also a market of those paying premium economy fares who can ‘upgrade’ to business on a points fare.

1.4c per point also makes sense for SYD-MEL and similar trunk routes. 15500 points for a business award at 1.4c = $217 plus $35 taxes = $252 one way. That’s about $100 off the published. And wide open availability.

 

[levelnine]

I suppose my argument is I wouldn't be willing to pay business class fares long haul given the prices. For me $8000 or $12000 to fly business return to the US is eye-watering. But I can justify spending say $3000 on a comparable award ticket, especially when the cheapest Y ticket is only slightly cheaper at say $2000. $1000 for lie-flat business return is a stellar value.

Nothing there contradicts what I said.

But I will note that you are taking a decent gamble when buying points at the equivalent of $3000. Because unlike a cash fare, you are not buying a seat, you are buying points. You then have the task of converting those points to a seat.

And there's plenty of risk there. As we've just seen, AC removed EY J availability overnight. So entire categories of flights can disappear without notice using points. We've also seen overnight devaluations of awards with UA. So prices can change dramatically without notice using points. And so on.

1.4c per point also makes sense for SYD-MEL and similar trunk routes. 15500 points for a business award at 1.4c = $217 plus $35 taxes = $252 one way. That’s about $100 off the published. And wide open availability.

That must be a very niche use case. There can't be many people willing to pay over the economy cash fare for business class on a flight with a bit over an hour of flight time. Especially when purchasing a business class seat with points loses one of the key considerations of value for most trunk route flyers: tax deductibility.

The only reason I bother flying business on those trunk routes is because I can get the flights on QF for about $100 (points+taxes) using Avios and can get DSC with PCP, so they earn a decent number of SC point per flight. If there wasn't SC earn attached to them, the business class premium would be $0 imo.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Nothing there contradicts what I said.

But I will note that you are taking a decent gamble when buying points at the equivalent of $3000. Because unlike a cash fare, you are not buying a seat, you are buying points. You then have the task of converting those points to a seat.

And there's plenty of risk there. As we've just seen, AC removed EY J availability overnight. So entire categories of flights can disappear without notice using points. We've also seen overnight devaluations of awards with UA. So prices can change dramatically without notice using points. And so on.



That must be a very niche use case. There can't be many people willing to pay over the economy cash fare for business class on a flight with a bit over an hour of flight time. Especially when purchasing a business class seat with points loses one of the key considerations of value for most trunk route flyers: tax deductibility.

The only reason I bother flying business on those trunk routes is because I can get the flights on QF for about $100 (points+taxes) using Avios and can get DSC with PCP, so they earn a decent number of SC point per flight. If there wasn't SC earn attached to them, the business class premium would be $0 imo.

The gamble is a calculated one, and part of the tapestry of managing FF and loyalty programs to the advantage of the passenger. AFF and FT are examples of thousands of people who do just that

As for the $100 over the economy fare… in some cases it’s much less than that. Sitting in a middle seat, sandwiched between two broad-shouldered passengers for two hours is perhaps a reason why some people are willing to lay that extra $100! The other things with VA business fares of course is that they are fully refundable, or in the case of points, refundable for $35. You’d otherwise lose your money. The $100 is insurance. Same for international fares… minimal cancellation fees if plans change on a points ticket.

 

[levelnine]

AFF and FT are examples of thousands of people who do just that

The proportion paying for points would probably be under 10% of that population. Indeed, the routine advice on forums is that paying for points is bad value except for when needed to top up a specific redemption that is available to book right now.

But the 'advantage of the passenger' is an interesting point. If you are willing to pay $3,000 for business class return and you get a business class return for $3,000 after navigating all the traps of points redemptions, I would argue you have not really gained an advantage. You've traded cash for what you consider to be fair value for the seat, and had to navigate a whole lot of difficulty along the way.

You only get an advantage if you get it for below fair value. For example, if you think the fair value for a business class return ticket is $3,000 and you get it for $1,000 (by credit card churning) and navigating all the traps of points redemptions, then you have gained an advantage. You've saved $2,000 by being willing to navigate the difficulty of reward bookings.

 

[tassie6]

Anyone purchased recently and know how long it took for the points to arrive? Needed just a few for an award seat and purchased about 1 hour ago, and they haven't arrived. Transaction is showing up on the card. I know Ts&Cs say up to 24 hours, but nearly all guides I read said should be available instantly

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The proportion paying for points would probably be under 10% of that population. Indeed, the routine advice on forums is that paying for points is bad value except for when needed to top up a specific redemption that is available to book right now.

But the 'advantage of the passenger' is an interesting point. If you are willing to pay $3,000 for business class return and you get a business class return for $3,000 after navigating all the traps of points redemptions, I would argue you have not really gained an advantage. You've traded cash for what you consider to be fair value for the seat, and had to navigate a whole lot of difficulty along the way.

You only get an advantage if you get it for below fair value. For example, if you think the fair value for a business class return ticket is $3,000 and you get it for $1,000 (by credit card churning) and navigating all the traps of points redemptions, then you have gained an advantage. You've saved $2,000 by being willing to navigate the difficulty of reward bookings.

I did not introduce the concept of a fair value rather that is how much I value it at. I value a return business class to Europe at $4,500 because that's what I can get it for buying points. If you pay more than that you are not necessarily getting the best value.

I would agree as a general principle that buying points may not be a good idea and less you have a specific award in mind and confined availability but sometimes it is worthwhile to buy points speculatively.

Air Canada is one such example. This may be another, depending on your flight requirements.

 

[levelnine]

I value a return business class to Europe at $4,500 because that's what I can get it for buying points. If you pay more than that you are not necessarily getting the best value.

That makes no rational sense.

If you could only get a Europe business class return for $9,000 by buying points, you'd then change your value of a European business class return to $9,000?!

That's a classic valuation mistake — value precedes price, not the other way around.

 

[fkcn]

The points themselves seem quite good value with the discount, but then have to add significant fees/taxes to that for VFF redemptions - recently paid about $750 one way for J redemption to Europe.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That makes no rational sense.

If you could only get a Europe business class return for $9,000 by buying points, you'd then change your value of a European business class return to $9,000?!

That's a classic valuation mistake — value precedes price, not the other way around.

points are cheaper than paying.

Obviously if the cash price was cheaper, that would be the valuation or comparison.

 

[levelnine]

points are cheaper than paying.

Obviously if the cash price was cheaper, that would be the valuation or comparison.

What is the cash amount you would be willing to pay for a European business class return? That is the value you assign to the flight.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What is the cash amount you would be willing to pay for a European business class return? That is the value you assign to the flight.

Not for me. If I can get a good quality flight for 4.5k using points that is the value I use as a comparator.

Airfares fluctuate wildly so assigning a value from a particular airline to a particular route doesn't always yield an accurate assessment. There has to be a benchmark somewhere. For me that benchmark is 4.5k.

If SQ, EK, QR, CX were to offer a business class paid fare
for $5,000 then I would pay that rather than using points, etc

 

[levelnine]

Not for me. If I can get a good quality flight for 4.5k using points that is the value I use as a comparator.

Airfares fluctuate wildly so assigning a value from a particular airline to a particular route doesn't always yield an accurate assessment. There has to be a benchmark somewhere. For me that benchmark is 4.5k.

If SQ, EK, QR, CX were to offer a business class paid fare
for $5,000 then I would pay that rather than using points, etc

Not sure why you say 'Not for me'. You have literally set the value for a business class return fare on a quality airline at $5,000.

You then set the discount at which you're prepared to deal with all the associated hassle of getting the same flight through points at $500.

It's funny that you and the other poster were replying to me as if you were doing something different to what I suggested. You are doing the exact thing I said people do LOL.

We all do it. I set the price for a European business class return fare at about $2,500. As I can generally get a European business class return fare for less than $1,750 (including carrier charges) with points attained by churning, I assign a value on the hassle of points at about $750. I consider that quite low because I quite like the game of points earning and burning, but only because there is a good reward at the end (ie flying business class for less than an economy class cash fare). If I could book QSuites for $2,500 with no points games, I'd do it because my time and effort are valuable — I'd switch to some other hobby for fun.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But the issue being discussed is the purchasing of points not points through credit card churning.

For the majority of time at $5,000 return on one of the quality flights is simply not a reality. Being able to purchase points and use flights is a reality for the majority of times. So while it may be possible to turn credit cards and get it cheaper than 4.5k, that may not be sustainable where as buying points is. Buying points is also available to everyone where as credit card churning may not be.

But with all things in the pints game YMMV

 

[levelnine]

But the issue being discussed is the purchasing of points not points through credit card churning.

For the majority of time at $5,000 return on one of the quality flights is simply not a reality. Being able to purchase points and use flights is a reality for the majority of times. So while it may be possible to turn credit cards and get it cheaper than 4.5k, that may not be sustainable where as buying points is. Buying points is also available to everyone where as credit card churning may not be.

But with all things in the pints game YMMV

Yes, I was just giving an example of how value is calculated. As with everything, value is calculated partly on the basis of practicable alternatives. Eg the value of an iPhone would sky rocket if it were literally the only smart phone in the world (ie there were no Android alternatives). Hence why I value flights differently from you — we have different alternatives.

 

[albatross710]

Is it a regular offer that VA discounts points purchasing?

 

[oz_mark]

Is it a regular offer that VA discounts points purchasing?

A couple of times a year, although, I am not sure that there is any regular cycle to it.

 

[ols]

A couple of times a year, although, I am not sure that there is any regular cycle to it.

Is 40% the highest discount they have offered?

 

[oz_mark]

Is 40% the highest discount they have offered?

It's the highest discount I recall, but from memory they offered 100% bonus points once.

 

[LostRedditor]

It's the highest discount I recall, but from memory they offered 100% bonus points once.

Yea, October November 2020. It was while they were under administration. I hesitated, along with most people, to buy from an airline whose future was so uncertain.

I doubt they'll repeat this offer any time soon, if ever.