Body scanners in Aus... No option to opt out?

[medhead]

Re: No Pat Down option for Australian body scanners

From what I know, the scanner being used are 'millimetre wave" scanners. Which use radio waves, as opposed to x-rays. But saying that, the frequencies are so high, the "jury is still out" about health concerns.

There is just about no doubt about RF radiation. it causes heating in the body and the body is more than capable of dissipating the heat generated. I know that they increased the rating of EMF radiation last year, but it is now in the same risk category as things like talcum powder.

Even the x-ray versions use d ifferent technology to standard x-ray machines, which basically penetrate the body to project to a film under the body part being x-rayed. The airport versions are a "back scatter" type in which the x-rays only penetrate abouty 10mm then are reflected back. Still not good for high risk individuals (children, pregnant females).

Risk is related to exposure. The x-ray scanners involve such a small exposure that it would be false to say they are not good for children or pregnant people; the risk is immeasurably small.

What is disturbing though, is that workers who use the back scatter machines on a daily basis in the US, were being denied "exposure badges" to warn them of accumulative dosages. Radiographers don't wear those big lead aprons for nothing.

Actually, radiographers rarely wearing lead aprons, as they mainly operate the x-ray machine from a different room that has lead shielding in the walls. In the same way the x-ray scanners have shielding in built into their structure and hence radiation monitoring is not required for the operators. A key part of the annual compliance testing for this type of equipment (at least in Australia) is to test for leakage radiation. So the safety of operators is assured. Besides I've run my radiation monitor through the baggage x-ray at the airport once or twice and it basically registers nothing.

 

[tipsy.skipsy]

Full-body scans rolled out at all Australian international airports after trial | thetelegraph.com.au

No Scan - No Fly ... out of all Australian airports.

 

[AVC]

Re: No Pat Down option for Australian body scanners

T they mainly operate the x-ray machine from a different room that has lead shielding in the walls.

Which, is the same as wearing the apron. So same net effect. (Some hospitals I've worked in are lucky to have the actual x-ray machine, let alone lead walls, lol). But in my experience they always cover the patient's nads with a shield. Unless they are doing a pelvic. But if you've #'d your pelvis, radiating your nads is moot.

Actually these new machines aren't x-ray anyway, so it's all moot.

But going back to baggage x-ray. Back in the days of film, they would say "oh no, it wont fog your film unless it 1600 ASA or above". But guess what, you scan 200 ASA 4 times and it's the same as scanning 1600 ASA once. You throw old style film through a baggage x-ray enough times and it'll go black. I would always buy film after I flew, and get it developed prior to x-raying (especially if I knew I was going multiple flights).

I kind of like the cartoon stick figure they get on the screen. Do big fatties get a big fat cartoon image?

 

[Maca44]

As mentioned in a previous post, with now having two metal hips and scanning being introduced, I will miss the pad downs as it was the closest thing I had to a sex life

 

[simongr]

I just hope they have two queues - one for people to just walk through and be scanned and another for people who want to argue with security and hold up the line.

 

[medhead]

Which, is the same as wearing the apron. So same net effect. (Some hospitals I've worked in are lucky to have the actual x-ray machine, let alone lead walls, lol). But in my experience they always cover the patient's nads with a shield. Unless they are doing a pelvic. But if you've #'d your pelvis, radiating your nads is moot.

Actually a lead apron is not really the same a wall mounted shielding, there is a limit to the amount of lead that people can wear. But anyway, I was simply explaining why TSA staff don't need radiation monitoring.

In Australia, at least 3 states require shielding for all fixed x-ray equipment. I'd be interested to know where these hospitals are that don't have shielding installed around their fixed x-ray equipment.

Draping lead aprons over 'nads, or especially on the chest for dental x-ray is little more than a feel good measure, a placebo (if that analogy works). The lead apron does very little to attenuate scatter radiation, a lead apron is only useful against the direct beam for a patient. Clearly the direct beam illuminates the target organ, so no lead. Diagnostic x-ray exposure will do nothing to your 'nads unless it is prolonged and continuous, anyway.


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[simonpenny408]

Re: No Pat Down option for Australian body scanners

Actually, radiographers rarely wearing lead aprons, as they mainly operate the x-ray machine from a different room that has lead shielding in the walls. In the same way the x-ray scanners have shielding in built into their structure and hence radiation monitoring is not required for the operators. A key part of the annual compliance testing for this type of equipment (at least in Australia) is to test for leakage radiation. So the safety of operators is assured. Besides I've run my radiation monitor through the baggage x-ray at the airport once or twice and it basically registers nothing.

One of the problems in the US with the Rapidscan machines is that there does not appear to be annual calibration and they refuse to release any testing data and they keep pointing to a spurious USC paper as proof of their "safety".

Anyway - the TSA are finally getting their dosimeters

 

[medhead]

One of the problems in the US with the Rapidscan machines is that there does not appear to be annual calibration and they refuse to release any testing data and they keep pointing to a spurious USC paper as proof of their "safety".

Anyway - the TSA are finally getting their dosimeters

We are talking about Australia not the USA (I clearly mentioned testing in Australia) and it is a completely different type of radiation. So overall this is not related to this thread.

They would only be getting dosimeters because of a pointless scare campaign by people who feed on ignorance, IMO.


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[simonpenny408]

Yes - I understand what millimeter wave is from my Physics degree. Was just explaining what part of the US problem and perception has been

 

[rechoboam]

I doubt there are measurable health issues of any kind. It's jut so stupid though There were hundreds of people in the security lines last week, an area which is totally unsecured. Wow we have moved the target from this side of the scanner to the other, that was worth a few hundreds of millions.

 

[rechoboam]

Actually a lead apron is not really the same a wall mounted shielding, there is a limit to the amount of lead that people can wear. But anyway, I was simply explaining why TSA staff don't need radiation monitoring.

In Australia, at least 3 states require shielding for all fixed x-ray equipment. I'd be interested to know where these hospitals are that don't have shielding installed around their fixed x-ray equipment.

Draping lead aprons over 'nads, or especially on the chest for dental x-ray is little more than a feel good measure, a placebo (if that analogy works). The lead apron does very little to attenuate scatter radiation, a lead apron is only useful against the direct beam for a patient. Clearly the direct beam illuminates the target organ, so no lead. Diagnostic x-ray exposure will do nothing to your 'nads unless it is prolonged and continuous, anyway.


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But lead aprons aren't a joke, for the cardiologist or anaesthetist 30cm from the X-ray and working there 10hrs a day there would be some exposure. But yes it attenuates greatly as you move away (inverse square of the distance) and by the time you get to the wall even without lead shielding the exposure is dropping a lot.

 

[medhead]

But lead aprons aren't a joke, for the cardiologist or anaesthetist 30cm from the X-ray and working there 10hrs a day there would be some exposure. But yes it attenuates greatly as you move away (inverse square of the distance) and by the time you get to the wall even without lead shielding the exposure is dropping a lot.

I thought I was rather specific in referring to patients (and radiographers). No need to remove that context and replace it with people working in very different circumstances. Anyway, The biggest issue for fluoro use is eye exposure. Especially to the direct beam.


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[straitman]

I just hope they have two queues - one for people to just walk through and be scanned and another for people who want to argue with security and hold up the line.

.... and which line do you think will be longer :?:

 

[rechoboam]

I thought I was rather specific in referring to patients (and radiographers). No need to remove that context and replace it with people working in very different circumstances. Anyway, The biggest issue for fluoro use is eye exposure. Especially to the direct beam.


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Some of my cases have lasted longer than a radiographers entire working day! Only a few hours of X-ray today, the rest in MRI, dont know what i did to deserve that. You are right about the eyes of course.

 

[addyoni]

So many people are throwing in their 2cents (which given their lack of knowledge of the technology etc, is telling as it's really only worth next to nothin') on this that it's depressing. And they have to nerve to say 'And these people run our government?!' Well duh, politicians come from the same population as them. Voters can be politicians and politicians vote too.

Anyhow it's so stupid to compare this to cell phone usage. Cell phones are up against the head. The Rapiscan machines have a bit more of an air gap and are TeraHertz not Mega or GigaHertz.

Our bodies can generally handle the naturally occurring radiation when 40,000ft up in air on a 6 hour plane ride. Thing is that it's the duration, it's spread out of the length of cruising altitude flight. However the Rapiscans are a huge burst in 1/360th of the time. Not good. Like putting your body through a hot tub versus getting a big bucket of boiling toxic water splashed on you in a few seconds.

The former head of DHS Michael Chertoff (the first one appointed by Bush) was behind this company that pushed the scanners to airports. Originally they were for high risk areas such as prisons and diamond mines etc. But some sales evil genius started getting them into airports (bigger markets) and the Underwear (non-)bomber was a convenient reminder that 'terrorists are always looking for ways to blah blah' and voila!

So if you want your DNA heated up and split then g'head, get all the nudey scans you can muster the patience to put up with.

Love how they're called Rapiscans, pronounce it 'rapey-scans' and you're half way there in figuring out what it really is.

What airports need is private but accountable security paid by airlines, with the Israeli strategy of intelligence directed operations. Do the WTMD, and if you beep it, then you get a second scan in the TeraHertz machine, and if you fail that, get a pat down and failing that a more thorough search in a private video recording room with the help of latex or nitrile gloves and lube or not flying if you can't get to a film X-Ray facility in time. However that won't be necessary much as properly and thoroughly trained security and interrogation agents as used in Israel & El-Al flights will be able to determine whether you're a true threat or not.

There will be an option to opt-out. Go through the metal detectors. What are they going to do when the million dollar TeraHertz machines aren't functioning? Cancel all flights? 9/11 happened (at the airports point of view) not from a failure of security equipment but new tactics and sloppy complacent staff & procedures.

Short version: It's all just security theatre.

 

[straitman]

addyoni,

Maybe it's getting too late for this old guy but just about the only part of your post I really relate to is the last line :!:

 

[medhead]

Some of my cases have lasted longer than a radiographers entire working day!

Still my comment about lead aprons being a joke, was only related to patients. More broadly I mention radiographers. So your experiences and cases are not the subject of my earlier comment.

So many people are throwing in their 2cents (which given their lack of knowledge of the technology etc, is telling as it's really only worth next to nothin') on this that it's depressing.

You say this and then go on to compare 2 totally different types of radiation - ionising and non-ionising. by your own standard what you've written is worth next to nothing.

Short version: It's all just security theatre.

indeed the only bit that make sense.


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[addyoni]

LOL. Nice try. Just mentioning that X-ray is an option to check for threats isn't comparing them.

Anyhow, you missed the point. Read it again. It makes sense if you're not old - so perhaps freshen up a bit with a walk and sunshine...after you've sobered up and slept at least 6 hours.

 

[medhead]

LOL. Nice try. Just mentioning that X-ray is an option to check for threats isn't comparing them.

Anyhow, you missed the point. Read it again. It makes sense if you're not old - so perhaps freshen up a bit with a walk and sunshine...after you've sobered up and slept at least 6 hours.

Sorry buddy I didn't miss the point. As someone who works in radiation safety I can only say your post is little more that a confused jumble of unconnected mistruths. Here is the bit were you compared non-ionising and ionising radiation

Anyhow it's so stupid to compare this to cell phone usage. Cell phones are up against the head. The Rapiscan machines have a bit more of an air gap and are TeraHertz not Mega or GigaHertz.

There are so many problems in this one paragraph.

• Australia is using millimeter wave scanners. Scanners that use RF radiation so the comparison with a mobile phone is valid.
• Rapiscan walkthrough scanners use x-rays, this is ionising radiation and the frequency is irrelevant.
• no one has compared x-ray based scanners with mobile phones
• an air gap reduces the amount of radiation via something called the inverse square law
• however a gap or not is irrelevant as the most important thing is the intensity of the RF in tissue and that is comparable for 2 different transmitters in 2 different positions
• and of course there is the bit were you compare cosmic radiation (ionising) exposure with exposure to one of these scanners, which is non-ionising radiation in Australia.

I don't have time to correct the rest of you post and detangle it into something coherent.


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[addyoni]

The quoted e-newspaper article was the Transport Minister, I think Albanese saying somethin' about how it's like a cell phone call.

The air gap to me is important enough to not stand so close to them if I'm not using them, and as they age and wear out, there could be leakage from any shielding not working.

Haven't you heard of the ThruVision ones? Millimeter machines go up to THz, not just GHz. Frequencies matter as they are applied to whether it is passing through the body or not. All I care about is that I'm not going to use them if I can opt-out. A 10 second grope up is less harmful than a body scan.

In the end it's all lies, they're hiding facts and not telling the truth, as the liabilities would just be massive in 30 years. Radiation is radiation folks. Just as the tobacco corps paid out, cell phone companies have and will be paying out, now these machine might just when they're bought out by GE, Tata, BlackRock, State Street, Legal & General, etc., etc., I have no doubt about that. Give it a few years.