Ayers Rock / Uluru - not open for Aussies??

[HeavyElectricity]

I guess I view the request to not climb the rock the same as a request from a homeowner to take off my shoes or to not enter their private study room whilst I'm visiting their house. I'd probably like to climb the rock - I imagine the view would be impressive - but I don't think I will as I'd feel uncomfortable and that I'd be being disrespectful, even if I thought it was a strange request.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

So is it the law there, or a request? The law I will comply with; a request I will consider but in the case of the Pyramids, if it was safe, I'd climb (as I have already).

Some people do the right thing only for fear of breaking the law and being arrested and imprisoned (or going to hell, or purgatory, or being reincarnated as a coughroach etc etc).
Other people do the right thing because they have some ethics and some basic respect for other people.

I'm not religious, but I observe REQUESTS for silence, respectful conduct, removal of shoes and no photography in churches, mosques and synagogues.

A reminder - climbing Ayers Rock is permitted. It was expressly agreed to by the traditional owners as a condition of the hand-back.

As you observe, it was only agreed to because it was a non-negotiable condition of the hand-back.
The traditional owners would have banned climbing otherwise.
The absurdity of attaching conditions to the hand-back of land which was theirs anyway should be obvious.

Why is one side of this debate here always name-calling?

Why is one side of these debates always conforming to the same predictable pattern of prejudices? (See below.)

As someone who works 80 hours per week and pays a lot of taxes, I find it culturally offensive to pay for dole bludgers and would "prefer" people don't climb the steps to Centrelink but as much as I might like to, I'm not going to try to have that banned

Many people climb the steps of Centrelink to claim Student Allowances, Pensions, Family Tax Benefit and Medicare refunds.
As well as those who are unfortunate enough to be out of work. The vast majority of whom are not bludgers.
In any event you're conflating a personal opinion - or a prejudice - with a genuine cultural and religious practice.

 

[Pushka]

I wish we hadn't got into the Centrelink debate as it has zilch to do with the discussion and is a distraction.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

I wish we hadn't got into the Centrelink debate as it has zilch to do with the discussion and is a distraction.

Absolutely agree. Perhaps we could all agree not to pursue that line of argument any further?

 

[RB]

For those thinking of visiting & also having flexibility in their trip planning -we were there during a full moon & this provided some great photo opportunities with the setting/rising sun. The downside was that the night sky talks/education at the dinner we attended was not as dramatic as may be at other times

 

[marki]

Please think about it: does the entry fee to a museum or art gallery entitle you to do to the exhibits whatever you please? You are not buying rights to Ayers Rock. What you are paying for is the upkeep of the facilities, the visitor centre, the roads in the park etc. If it seems expensive consider how far you've just driven/flown. It costs money to make it convenient for you to visit. Everything needed here has to be transported over huge distances and that costs money.


There are other concerns about climbing, however: the path left by rubber from the soles of climbers’ shoes is visible from kilometres away and some tourists leave litter and damage the rock. Moreover, extreme heat and a lack of toilet facilities mean that large amounts of evaporated, concentrated human urine flow into the area’s waterholes whenever it rains.
Frankly Rooflyer your a Geo I thought you new better ...........

 

[Pushka]

Travelling to Uluru is very expensive. I think the price we paid for food, transport etc surely paid for the costs of its remoteness.

 

[marki]

Travelling to Uluru is very expensive. I think the price we paid for food, transport etc surely paid for the costs of its remoteness.

I agree very expensive......The staff don't get paid high wages they are often less than elsewhere for the privilege of working at that location. We even had a residents card, for discounts.

 

[coco50]

Yes, I'm sure, it will all be worn away within years by the insensitive climbers. Soon there will be nothing left!!!!
Same with Mt Everest, getting shorter every year due to climbing damage. We should ban all mountain climbing.

Have you ever been to Uluru - or just seen the pictures?

 

[Mark3000]

No coco, I haven't been to Ayer's Rock. I don't really have any desire to go there, there are so many more interesting places still to go first. But when I do go, I will be climbing it for sure. I l promise I will try not to wear it down too much. It sounds like I had better hurry, there won't be much left soon if horrible climbers keep eroding it. Somehow I suspect though that even if every single tour group climbed it we still might have a few million years before it starts to look visibly shorter

 

[RooFlyer]

Originally Posted by RooFlyer So is it the law there, or a request? The law I will comply with; a request I will consider but in the case of the Pyramids, if it was safe, I'd climb (as I have already).

Some people do the right thing only for fear of breaking the law and being arrested and imprisoned (or going to hell, or purgatory, or being reincarnated as a coughroach etc etc).
Other people do the right thing because they have some ethics and some basic respect for other people.

I'm not religious, but I observe REQUESTS for silence, respectful conduct, removal of shoes and no photography in churches, mosques and synagogues.
<snip>.

Still not sure about the situation at Egypt's pyramids. I gather now that its a request by the locals, not the law, so not sure why you posted earlier "You can't climb the great pyramids at Giza ..." (Which I have, so therefore I "can".)

Talking about "doing the right thing" is the usual argumentative trick of transferring values from the personal into the general.

Please think about it: does the entry fee to a museum or art gallery entitle you to do to the exhibits whatever you please? You are not buying rights to Ayers Rock. What you are paying for is the upkeep of the facilities, the visitor centre, the roads in the park etc. If it seems expensive consider how far you've just driven/flown. It costs money to make it convenient for you to visit. Everything needed here has to be transported over huge distances and that costs money.
<snip>

Think about it ... if I visit a museum etc there are hard and fast rules about what I can an cannot do. Climbing Ayers rock is perfectly within the rules of visiting, if its safe on the day. And actually, by paying Park admission, I am buying the 'right' to visit and climb the rock, if its safe to do so on the day, and I otherwise comply with the park rules.

<snip>
There are other concerns about climbing, however: the path left by rubber from the soles of climbers’ shoes is visible from kilometres away and some tourists leave litter and damage the rock. Moreover, extreme heat and a lack of toilet facilities mean that large amounts of evaporated, concentrated human urine flow into the area’s waterholes whenever it rains.
Frankly Rooflyer your a Geo I thought you new better ...........


Rooflyer it's not going to be damaged? ...

Well, I'm not sure what that photo illustrates except the very common phenomenon of rock pools developing in sedimentary rock, with trails of dark algal residue caused by water over-flow. The holes are often caused by a bigger-than-average grain or drop- stone sitting in a depression, then grinding its surrounding rock away whenever it moves when water flows - a natural mortar and pestle. Or are you implying they are where people have trodden? You can see this phenomenon all over the world. In many places the indigenous people use the natural 'potholes' for storage of foods or for grinding places.

As a geo I don't claim any particular expertise in the consequences of lack of toilet facilities other than what you have described is typical of very many National Parks, unfortunately - like I said above, any National Park ranger will tell you that a human visiting a Park will damage it. I'm not convinced that human urine flowing off the Rock into waterholes is any worse problem than animal urine and faeces but then I'll leave that analysis to you.


My bottom line: Climbing Ayers rock is a permitted, regulated activity at the National Park and a pastime of generations. It was agreed to by the Traditional Owners as a condition of having the land handed back. Everyone can make their own decision whether to climb or not, but it would be nice if those making a negative decision could keep their moral superiority to themselves and let the rest of us get on with it. Who knows, engaging with a traditional owner at the site might change my mind about this issue, but the more I get hectored, get presented with specious arguments, get called names, or get shouted at DO NOT CLIMB THE ROCK, the more my back gets up.

 

[coco50]

No coco, I haven't been to Ayer's Rock. I don't really have any desire to go there, there are so many more interesting places still to go first. But when I do go, I will be climbing it for sure. I l promise I will try not to wear it down too much. It sounds like I had better hurry, there won't be much left soon if horrible climbers keep eroding it. Somehow I suspect though that even if every single tour group climbed it we still might have a few million years before it starts to look visibly shorter

You make a lot of noise about Uluru for someone who hasn't been there. The photo shows some of the erosion caused by wind, water, frost shattering and insolation cracking - not by people climbing on these surfaces. Uluru was formed more than 500 million years ago and what you see now is a fraction of what it originally was. Erosion of this monolith has been quite rapid. The impact of humans has only been over the last 40 000 years and is less significant that natural erosion. However like humans anywhere there is always an impact on the natural environment.

It is interesting that you state what you are going to do when you get there. You sound as if you are American. (I have two children living in the LOTFAP, married to LOTFAPPIANS and you sound like them - know it all before you get there.) If you do climb Uluru I hope that you enjoy it - and be careful - and not because of the environment. Good luck!

 

[jetkins]

I agree it's not about damage, it's about respect for polite requests to honor cultural differences. My graveyard analogy was the best I could come up with as, not being of the Anangu people, I cannot hope to understand the deep cultural significance it holds to them.

But in the end, anyone that chooses to ignore such requests (or thinks that "insentitive" is an ad hominem) is unlikely to be swayed, so I'm through with banging my head against this particular wall. Enjoy your climb, but don't get mad if someone defaces your church or somehow offends your cultural sensibilities.

 

[Pushka]

All of which really goes to show that Mother Nature does more to change/damage/modify our environment, in this case Uluru, than man does.

Mmm. There's a thought.

No need to bring nationality in. As a several generation Australian born if I wanted to I would like to think I have the right (and I do) to climb it.

My grandfathers grave means a lot to me but clearly the Govt couldn't give a toss.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip> Enjoy your climb, but don't get mad if someone defaces your church or somehow offends your cultural sensibilities.

It does happen, it has happened, and I don't get mad about it. The church my ancestors built on land they donated here in Oz was demolished c1910 to supply building stone for the local squire, for example.

 

[Pushka]

Enjoy your climb, but don't get mad if someone defaces your church or somehow offends your cultural sensibilities.

Happens all the time in multi-cultural societies.

 

[Captain hum]

We visited the area waaaay back in 1998. It was stunning. We flew in, hired a car and stayed at a cabin at the resort. Not cheap even back then and we were visiting with the GBP exchange rate on our side.
We walked the base, after being advised that the climb was frowned upon and were very glad we did. I'm not a particularly spiritual person , but was very moved by Uluru .

The car hire gave us the ability to drive to the Olgas and Kings Canyon ( which I urge you to visit if you are in the area. Both are fabulous) . We also did an evening at the Observatory. Not sure if it is still offered It was incredible. I have never seen a night sky like it.


I'm very keen to go back. Maybe for my 50th....

 

[Justinf]

Well I'm really looking forward to going in May.
Thanks for all those who have provided some valuable tips.
I am fit and healthy and would love to climb the rock, but won't be out of respect for the Anangu people and their wishes.

 

[coco50]

Well I'm really looking forward to going in May.
Thanks for all those who have provided some valuable tips.
I am fit and healthy and would love to climb the rock, but won't be out of respect for the Anangu people and their wishes.

I hope that you and your daughter have a great trip.

 

[Justinf]

I hope that you and your daughter have a great trip.

Thank you. We're flying from MEL via SYD so I have have put in a few premium upgrade bids so hopefully it will be a nice surprise for Miss 15 to do the SYD-AYQ and return legs in J, even if it's just the 738 service.