Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

Do you talk into a "radio"

I prefer sneaking around in silence.

DCS is getting a hiding, I'm guessing. Impressive setup.

All I have is an Xbox running MS Flight Sim and a Turtle Beach Velocity One controller which is a bit underwhelming, I must say.

I sometimes watch Mover (CW Lemoine) YT vids when he shows what DCS can be like with one of those headsets. Same with Tim Davies (former RAF FJ driver).

Do a search for a YouTube channel called Growling Sidewinder.

 

[jb747]

These are shockers, that I hadn't heard about before.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/2025-11/AO-2023-043%20Final.pdf

 

[Dale Eastham]

I can understand how NOTAM information can be missed, and if you dont listen carefully to the AITS then confirmation bias might mean you only hear the parts you are expecting to hear - but the people and equipment working on the far end of the runway are going to have flashing yellow beacon lights on the vehicles as an absolute minimum.
You would be accelerating directly towards them, so the may not be moving in relation to the background, but are there that many lights beyond the end of the runway that flashing/rotating lights would get lost in the background?

 

[markis10]

but the people and equipment working on the far end of the runway are going to have flashing yellow beacon lights on the vehicles as an absolute minimum.

Not necessarily, it’s not unusual to have an escort with a works crew using equipment and cars/trucks that don’t have beacons.

Crew are not necessarily looking out the window either.

 

[torks]

Does the fact that this happened twice in a relatively small space of time highlight how the notification procedure (via NOTAMs and ATIS) is inadequate or should the pilots/airline of done better? I believe you've mentioned in the past that it wasn't unusual to receive dozens (hundreds) of Notam's, the vast majority of which are irrelevant, which I guess can cause people to miss the important ones.

 

[Quickstatus]

These are shockers

Likely they don't review NOTAMS or listen to ATIS in their entirety during routine operations because they think most of the time there is nothing out of ordinary. Eventually the deviation from good practice is normalised.

Both pilots of both aircraft did not detect the shortened runway suggesting a systemic issue is at play rather than just human error

I guess can cause people to miss the important ones.

Like alarms or aural warnings. If activated incessantly, people will eventually start to ignore them.

 

[jb747]

I can understand how NOTAM information can be missed

I agree that NOTAM information can be missed....but, there's no excuse for not having a good read of the paperwork for your departure airport, even if you leave everything else until later. My take on this is that reading of NOTAMS wasn't something they did at all.

and if you dont listen carefully to the AITS then confirmation bias might mean you only hear the parts you are expecting to hear

ATIS isn't that long, and it was normal to write the entire thing down. Also for all pilots to get it separately, as any error would transfer to the take off data. To me this is obviously a case of only one person getting it. Most of the time, in modern aircraft you get it off the ACARs, so the entire thing is on a print out for you to read.

but the people and equipment working on the far end of the runway are going to have flashing yellow beacon lights on the vehicles as an absolute minimum.
You would be accelerating directly towards them, so the may not be moving in relation to the background, but are there that many lights beyond the end of the runway that flashing/rotating lights would get lost in the background?

Lights aren't necessarily all that obvious, given that the end of the runway is the better part of 2 miles away. Also runways aren't level, and things can be hidden by the bumps. This is accentuated by aircraft with low coughpits. You would expect the obstructions to eventually be noticed, and for TOGA to be selected.

Does the fact that this happened twice in a relatively small space of time highlight how the notification procedure (via NOTAMs and ATIS) is inadequate or should the pilots/airline of done better?

It's an inadequate system, but they should also have done much better.

Both pilots of both aircraft did not detect the shortened runway suggesting a systemic issue is at play rather than just human error.

And yet, in the same period of time, lots of other aircraft used the runway without issue. I suspect that the systemic failure lies within both airlines.

 

[mjt57]

About to watch the news. It'll be interesting to see Nein News' take on it. At least, I guess, they can't use the dreaded "plunge" word...

 

[RSD]

I haven't read the report yet - but the ATSB video popped up in my Youtube feed this afternoon - they do a good job of explaining what happened - ATSB Video

What has me alarmed is - why the hell was it allowed to happen a second time? Surely after the first occurrence there should have been enough OH&S people at the airport going "Holy cough" - our safety measures haven't been sufficient and the need to immediately put some additional control measures in place should have been obvious to prevent a reoccurrence. The airport industry has already seen previously what happens when aircraft taking off collide with resealing equipment at speed on a runway - it happened in either Singapore or Hong Kong or somewhere up that way and it didn't end well. Just as well these weren't aircraft that needed longer to take off...

 

[jb747]

OH&S….keep them as far from aviation as you can. The only safe aircraft, is, as we all know, one that doesn’t ever fly.

Runway works happen all over the world, basically all of the time. Having a runway shortened is not at all unusual. The issue with Australia is that we have no equal length parallel runway airports, so any works will always have an operational impact. Not properly reading the departure airport’s NOTAMs is a dramatic failure. They all had multiple pilots, and each of them should have read that section. I’d really be questioning the coughpit culture involved.

 

[Quickstatus]

coughpit culture

One pilot making an error OK, but 2 pilots making the same error at the same time?
Maybe coughpit culture but also calls into question the upline corporate governance

Q: When do airlines run a 3 pilot mission? 8hrs duration or more?
Q: Sloppiness can often be picked up in sims, but there is only so much sim time to go around.

Its not my spelling : pit correctly spelled appears as coughpit for some reason

 

[markis10]

One pilot making an error OK, but 2 pilots making the same error at the same time?

Pilots are not necessarily 100% at fault here, considerable concern needs to be put on the flight dispatchers who provided a report that the airport had no significant applicable notams while in the case of MH the MAB briefing and OFB had inadequate space for the complete ATIS.

 

[Quickstatus]

considerable concern needs to be put on the flight dispatchers who provided a report that the airport had no significant applicable notams

Sure, but the NOTAMS are required reading for pilots operating any flight out of that applicable airport?
But as I said, there are systemic issues.

 

[RSD]

Runway works happen all over the world, basically all of the time. Having a runway shortened is not at all unusual. The issue with Australia is that we have no equal length parallel runway airports, so any works will always have an operational impact. Not properly reading the departure airport’s NOTAMs is a dramatic failure. They all had multiple pilots, and each of them should have read that section. I’d really be questioning the coughpit culture involved.

Not only did they miss the NOTAM's, the ATIS message that was current at the time mentioned the shortened runway before it went on to mention the conditions - so the pilots basically tuned out on the information about the shortened runway and basically were going "come on, come on - get to the conditions stuff that we need".

The fact that pilots from two different airlines both missed (ignored) multiple opportunities to receive the information is a worrying sign for the future of aviation...

 

[markis10]

Not only did they miss the NOTAM's, the ATIS message that was current at the time mentioned the shortened runway before it went on to mention the conditions - so the pilots basically tuned out on the information about the shortened runway and basically were going "come on, come on - get to the conditions stuff that we need".

AS I mentioned upthread the OFB didn’t have room for the non normal ATIS stuff in both cases

 

[jb747]

One pilot making an error OK, but 2 pilots making the same error at the same time?

I don't think that 2 people made the same error at all. I think that one person looked at the NOTAMs (maybe) and one person listened to the ATIS. The second person's error was in not getting the ATIS themselves. There's no point to working out the data separately (did they do that, I wonder), if you haven't sourced it yourself.

Maybe coughpit culture but also calls into question the upline corporate governance.

Yes. QF isn't perfect, but we were pretty fanatical about each pilot individually gathering the data for the take off calculations, with no crossover until you had an answer. And extra pilots were expected to take part too.

Q: When do airlines run a 3 pilot mission? 8hrs duration or more?

Varies with the nationality of the airline.

Q: Sloppiness can often be picked up in sims, but there is only so much sim time to go around.

Sims don't pick up this sort of error. Annual route checks, and standards checks are meant to, but people who skip steps often put them back if they know they're being looked at.

Its not my spelling : pit correctly spelled appears as coughpit for some reason

Seems appropriate.

Pilots are not necessarily 100% at fault here, considerable concern needs to be put on the flight dispatchers who provided a report that the airport had no significant applicable notams

Yes, but you aren't supposed to take that as gospel, and then check no further. It means that they didn't notice anything. Beyond that though, I doubt that either of these mobs have an actual planner in Melbourne. The data would have come from overseas to their iPads.

while in the case of MH the MAB briefing and OFB had inadequate space for the complete ATIS.

That's only a bit of paper. If you get the ATIS on the ACARs it prints out as much as there is. In any case, there's plenty of blank space available.

Not only did they miss the NOTAM's, the ATIS message that was current at the time mentioned the shortened runway before it went on to mention the conditions - so the pilots basically tuned out on the information about the shortened runway and basically were going "come on, come on - get to the conditions stuff that we need".

My take is pilot, not pilots.

The fact that pilots from two different airlines both missed (ignored) multiple opportunities to receive the information is a worrying sign for the future of aviation...

Don't check, she'll be right.

AS I mentioned upthread the OFB didn’t have room for the non normal ATIS stuff in both cases.

Write smaller.