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straitman

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JB thank you . Can the same issue happen with the same plane type but different configurations . I am thinking of the a330 200 with Qantas and how they have an international, domestic and a hybrid seating arrangement.
This can literally happen to any aircraft at anytime if it is loaded incorrectly. CofG calculations are an important part of everyday aviation life.
 

eric2011

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Once the problem was identified should the pilots have moved a dozen pax to the rear and would that have been safer for the low speed approach for landing
 

jb747

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JB thank you . Can the same issue happen with the same plane type but different configurations . I am thinking of the a330 200 with Qantas and how they have an international, domestic and a hybrid seating arrangement.
You'd never say that something isn't possible, because people are amazingly adept at finding new ways to make errors, but I don't think you'd be able to get enough of an error in different configurations of the same type.

Cargo...now that's a whole different ball game.

Once the problem was identified should the pilots have moved a dozen pax to the rear and would that have been safer for the low speed approach for landing.
They never really worked out that that CofG was incorrect. They correctly deduced that the trim setting was wrong, but not that the overall balance was badly out. If they'd done that, they could have contacted the company and had them run the loadsheet again, to get the correct figures, or, they could have done it themselves. I don't know if they had the ability to electronically run the loadsheet, but even a rough manual one wouldn't have taken more than 10 minutes (assuming they actually knew how to do it).

You'd probably need to move many more than a dozen. Alternatively, you could fill all of the seats around the centre of the aircraft, with nobody at either extremity. It's a dangerous game to play without any numbers. They found how easy it was to end up too far forward. They would not recover from too far aft.
 
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Sprucegoose

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Hopefully the proposed 'rescue' flights for stranded citizens will keep operations current to allow for a ramp up towards current capacity when required. This will allow regulatory authorities to authorize capacity as required as opposed from a standing start. As noted they are not the most responsive and have their own capacity issues. I wonder what they are doing at present?
 

jb747

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Hopefully the proposed 'rescue' flights for stranded citizens will keep operations current to allow for a ramp up towards current capacity when required. This will allow regulatory authorities to authorize capacity as required as opposed from a standing start. As noted they are not the most responsive and have their own capacity issues.
Whilst anything is good, I doubt that this represents much of a start, and it's unlikely to cause much in the way of recovery of the stored aircraft.

I wonder what they are doing at present?
Navel gazing?
 

Dale Eastham

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I feel like this story is too simplistic to be true; surely connecting planes to their equivalent of a trickle-charger would be a straightforward solution somehow? I see planes at airports sealed up, covered up, being wheeled in & out of maintenance hangars; surely someone is charging the batteries along the way?

 

jb747

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I feel like this story is too simplistic to be true; surely connecting planes to their equivalent of a trickle-charger would be a straightforward solution somehow? I see planes at airports sealed up, covered up, being wheeled in & out of maintenance hangars; surely someone is charging the batteries along the way?

Connect the trickle charger. How? The aircraft were never designed for this sort of long term storage, so there are no easy access USB (or other) plugs that you can slip a charger into. It was never really an issue with the relatively small number of aircraft that were in storage before the current mess. Now, it's the scale of things that will cause overwhelming issues.
 

albatross710

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When I read the YBBN Notams and ATIS it says:

ATIS YBBN T 170921
APCH: EXP INST APCH
RWY: 19L AND R ARR AND DEP
OPR INFO: DEPENDENT PARALLEL APPROACHES AND INDEPENDENT PARALLEL DEPARTURES IN PROGRESS

What would that last line mean?

From the Notam:

C1238/20 INDEPENDENT PARALLEL APPROACH USER INSTRUCTIONS AMD RNP AR APPROACHES TEXT TO READ RNP-AR APPROACHES PERMIT REDUCED SEPARATION BETWEEN AIRCRAFT CONDUCTING INDEPENDENT PARALLEL APPROACHES. WHEN CLEARED FOR AN RNP-AR APPROACH, THE AIRCRAFT IS CONSIDERED 'ESTABLISHED' ON THE APPROACH PROCEDURE ONCE IT IS ON THE DEFINED LATERAL AND VERTICAL PATH AND PAST THE IAF FOR THE PROCEDURE. IF UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH THE ATC CLEARANCE OR CONDUCT THE CLEARED APPROACH, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE ADVISE THE CONTROLLER AND COMPLY WITH SUBSEQUENT ATC INSTRUCTIONS. AMD INTEGRATED AERONAUTICAL INFO PACKAGE FROM 11 050230 TO PERM
 

AviatorInsight

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When I read the YBBN Notams and ATIS it says:

ATIS YBBN T 170921
APCH: EXP INST APCH
RWY: 19L AND R ARR AND DEP
OPR INFO: DEPENDENT PARALLEL APPROACHES AND INDEPENDENT PARALLEL DEPARTURES IN PROGRESS

What would that last line mean?

Dependent and independent all has to do with separation standards that apply to arriving and departing aircraft.

Dependent approaches = aircraft on final are staggered with the aircraft on the adjacent approach path.
Independent approaches = aircraft can be aligned together down the approach path.
Independent departures = simultaneous departures for aircraft departing in the same direction from parallel runways.
 
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Dale Eastham

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Connect the trickle charger. How? The aircraft were never designed for this sort of long term storage, so there are no easy access USB (or other) plugs that you can slip a charger into. It was never really an issue with the relatively small number of aircraft that were in storage before the current mess. Now, it's the scale of things that will cause overwhelming issues.
I would have thought through the ground power connection - obviously not. I looked at the stored long-haulers as I went past them in Auckland the other day & realized they didn't have umbilical's attached; I'd not previously noticed this but had rather assumed that they would have been connected to ground power.
I suppose its difficult to get that to them, out on the apron.
 

jb747

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I would have thought through the ground power connection - obviously not. I looked at the stored long-haulers as I went past them in Auckland the other day & realized they didn't have umbilical's attached; I'd not previously noticed this but had rather assumed that they would have been connected to ground power.

If you want to run an aircraft via ground power, the amount of electricity required can be quite spectacular. The 380 is an extreme, but to fully power it required 3, and preferably 4, of the biggest ground power carts. I doubt that the battery chargers would even be set up to run when powered this way, as the aim was to minimize the power draw from the external units, saving what you might call optional loads, for when the aircraft generators are powered. So, you're going to need something like one cart for every 737/320 sized aircraft, two for bigger, and 3-4 for the biggest, and that assumes battery charging is even possible via this avenue. That would be a substantial multiple of the world's supply of carts.

You'll then have to consider batteries that aren't normally charged by the aircraft at all, of which there are many (for instance those associated with the slide/rafts).
 

mjt57

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With all of these aircraft sitting somewhere, no external power sources, it'll be interesting to see how they get them going again. And what condition would the batteries be in if they're not being maintained/conditioned, etc..

JB, with your van you'd probably understand where I'm going with this given how those sorts of batteries need specific chargers to keep them charged properly. The aircraft batteries, if I had to guess, are several levels higher in terms of complexity than your standard car battery.
 

straitman

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Ni Cd batteries used in aircraft are quite complex. Here is a link to Ni Cd Battery Maintenance.

Many years ago, whilst flying flood relief in outback Queensland I had a thermal runaway. The unlikely but possible outcome from this is an explosion. We landed in a paddock, took out the battery and left it to be retrieved at a later time.
 

jb747

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With all of these aircraft sitting somewhere, no external power sources, it'll be interesting to see how they get them going again. And what condition would the batteries be in if they're not being maintained/conditioned, etc..

I expect that there will be a lot of batteries being removed, and recharged in workshops. Aircraft are going to trickle out of storage anyway. Demand won't ramp up instantly, and there are many other hurdles to rapid restarts of the airlines. By the time the pilots work out how to fly again, I'd expect the batteries to be charged up.

JB, with your van you'd probably understand where I'm going with this given how those sorts of batteries need specific chargers to keep them charged properly. The aircraft batteries, if I had to guess, are several levels higher in terms of complexity than your standard car battery.

My van has a lithium battery, and I keep it attached to mains, and therefore a trickle charger, at all times when not in use. But, due to finger trouble, the battery did once run right down. Getting it going again required delving deep into the pages of the charger's manual, to find the correct mode for the charge.
 

747sp

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With Rex flying some 737 previous flown by Virgin and I understand pilots previously employed by Virgin would you expect any difference in the different airlines procedures ? Also if a pilot changes airlines and flys the same plane type what certification do they need to complete?
 
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