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Ask The Pilot

AviatorInsight

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Oct 5, 2016
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832
Removal of landmarks:

Yesterday the Hazelwood power station chimneys were removed. Apparently they were a landmark for local pilots to look out for.
When landmarks such as this are removed are charts updated or a notice issued to the nearest airports to remind pilots of the change?

In this instance pilots using TGN and probably SXE would be most affected.

TIA.
There are no current NOTAMs (Notice to Airmen) for Latrobe or West Sale. Even the FIR and Head Office NOTAMs make no mention of it. I don’t see why they would to be honest, an obstacle has now been cleared and no longer poses a threat. Whether they were there before I’m not sure.

On navigation charts though, obstacles are allowed to exist without reporting up to 360ft AGL. Above this height it is mandatory to be reported. With the chimneys sitting at around 400ft AGL they would have existed on the charts and with the next air publication cycle, they will get removed.

You might notice buildings and obstacles having certain lights flash or be steady red at night? The same principle applies.
 

D747

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Oct 18, 2011
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Qantas
LT Gold
We don’t have access to any g meter readings, so we gather as much info as we can. If we’ve suspected a hard landing (note that it has to be actually hard), this is different to a firm landing, then a quick write up in the maintenance log and a quick check by the engineers is all that’s required to get going again.
Are there airports that your airlines uses that do not have engineers at them?
 

OATEK

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Hi pilots, thanks for all the work you do keeping us regular commuters safe.

Just a question about landings, in particular rough ones. I fly domestically almost weekly pre COVID and as such have many flights that blend together, but the ones I seem to remember long after are the ones with particularly rough landings.

My question is, while I'm sure a rough landing can have many causes and is likely of more concern to the backsides of the pax than the crew, what is the reaction in the cockpit ? Are there degrees of impact that dictate whether it's even mentioned ? Does a severe one have to be reported to maintenance ?

Thanks again for the best forum around.
I remember an Uncle of mine saying a landing was akin to a controlled crash. Whether he was trying to put us off asking more I don't know - I was quite young at the time and left it there.
 

jb747

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I remember an Uncle of mine saying a landing was akin to a controlled crash. Whether he was trying to put us off asking more I don't know - I was quite young at the time and left it there.
Even a poor landing is hopefully a lot better than that.

But, the comment isn’t too far astray when talking about landings on board aircraft carriers. They had no flare whatsoever, but the undercarriages were built for that. They have a long stroke, and no rebound.
 

ChrisGibbs

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Are there airports that your airlines uses that do not have engineers at them?
Back in the mid 90's AIrNZ had a 767-2xx flight that ran 2-3 days per week from HNL-RAR-AKL. We left HNL around 90 minutes late due to a hydraulic issue. When we landed in the Cook Islands the aircraft was connected with a ground tug to manoeuvre us from the taxiway to the parking stand. All the passengers travelling from RAR-AKL were disembarked and advised we wouldn't be re-boarding until the hydraulic issue was fixed (best case). Or, we would need to overnight in RAR and wait for an engineer or replacement aircraft be flown in from Auckland (worst case). I recall a cherry picker came out and positioned alongside where the rudder connected with tail fin. I'm not sure if the guy in the cherry picker was an engineer from Air NZ however after about 2hrs of work one of the tech crew jumped back in the cockpit and you could see the nose wheel rotating left and right with a thumbs up out of the cockpit window. Within about 45 minutes all passengers were back onboard and we were heading to AKL. When we landed in AKL the aircraft was towed off the taxiway to the gate.

Would it be reasonable to assume that somewhere like RAR would have a engineer that multiple airlines could call up as needed. On the 767 is there a hydraulic systems that runs both the nose wheel steering and rudder?
 

D747

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Not too many. Basically anywhere we don’t overnight, so CFS, AYQ, BNK, HTI, PPP, ROK, ISA.
The reason I ask is; what is the procedure if you had a hard landing or other issue at one of the ports that didn't have an engineer?
 

AviatorInsight

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The reason I ask is; what is the procedure if you had a hard landing or other issue at one of the ports that didn't have an engineer?
The engineering team can download the diagnostics remotely. They can see the g load limits. If we suspect a hard landing we’ll call them. If it’s within limits, a write up in the maintenance log is done, a walk around by the captain, and then flown back to an engineering port.

If not. Then an engineer needs to be flown out to inspect it themselves.
 

jb747

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The reason I ask is; what is the procedure if you had a hard landing or other issue at one of the ports that didn't have an engineer?
Hard landings, be they actual or reported, are extremely uncommon. They way they are spoken about here makes me think that people think they‘re common. Firm landings are not ‘hard’.

What is much more common is simply the aircraft having a failure of some sort. Without an engineer, there are a few items that can be carried over to the next port, but the vast majority would require an engineer to sign them off. Many airports have engineers accredited to work across multiple airlines, aircraft types, and even trades. Another skill that is disappearing.
 

jb747

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Back in the mid 90's AIrNZ had a 767-2xx flight that ran 2-3 days per week from HNL-RAR-AKL. We left HNL around 90 minutes late due to a hydraulic issue. When we landed in the Cook Islands the aircraft was connected with a ground tug to manoeuvre us from the taxiway to the parking stand. All the passengers travelling from RAR-AKL were disembarked and advised we wouldn't be re-boarding until the hydraulic issue was fixed (best case). Or, we would need to overnight in RAR and wait for an engineer or replacement aircraft be flown in from Auckland (worst case). I recall a cherry picker came out and positioned alongside where the rudder connected with tail fin. I'm not sure if the guy in the cherry picker was an engineer from Air NZ however after about 2hrs of work one of the tech crew jumped back in the cockpit and you could see the nose wheel rotating left and right with a thumbs up out of the cockpit window. Within about 45 minutes all passengers were back onboard and we were heading to AKL.
You’re not actually supposed to let the nose gear move when checking the rudder.

When we landed in AKL the aircraft was towed off the taxiway to the gate.
Use of the tug to get the aircraft to the gate would imply that the C system wasn’t available. Which, in this case, would mean that it had failed again. Or, more likely, had never really been fixed. It must have worked for a while though, as you can’t retract the gear without it.

Do you recall anything different about the landing in Auckland? C hydraulic system out is a different landing configuration than normal.

Would it be reasonable to assume that somewhere like RAR would have a engineer that multiple airlines could call up as needed.
I’d expect there to be an ANZ employed engineer. Other airlines may contract him via ANZ as required.

On the 767 is there a hydraulic systems that runs both the nose wheel steering and rudder?
The nose gear steering (and most other things to do with the undercarriage) are powered by the centre hydraulic system. The rudder is powered by all three systems, L, C and R.
 

AviatorInsight

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Just a question regarding the flight path of a (unusually low over our house) SIA 747 tonight, as shown on flight radar: SQ7290 (SIA7290) Singapore Airlines Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

With so few aircraft in the sky why the big 'U' before landing? Seems like a similar flight path the previous time the flight operated last week.
That wasn’t landing, that was departing on the CORRS9 Departure. If you can follow the track (highlighted) on the attached chart, it looks exactly the same.

04EC4C04-8793-44A6-8B1B-CF536A296B3D.jpeg
 

mjt57

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Last year in Washington (the state), US, I watched a 747-8 freighter pass low overhead, gear down, heap of flap, presumably on final for the local airport.

It was interesting to hear the engines changing pitch as they presumably spooling up, then down and so on as it passed overhead.

Now, would the engines still be on auto-throttle at this point, or being controlled by the flying pilot?
 

MEL_Traveller

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That wasn’t landing, that was departing on the CORRS9 Departure. If you can follow the track (highlighted) on the attached chart, it looks exactly the same.

View attachment 218844
Apologies Aviatorinsight and thanks for the reply. I see the link I posted has now updated with the departure to Auckland.

At the time of posting last night, 27 May, the link was to the landing coming in from Sydney, with the 'U' shape on the way in. I've tried to add the archived link now, but if it doesn't work, it is dated 27 May: SQ7290 (SIA7290) Singapore Airlines Flight Tracking and History 27-May-2020 (SYD / YSSY-MEL / YMML) - FlightAware
 

AviatorInsight

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Apologies Aviatorinsight and thanks for the reply. I see the link I posted has now updated with the departure to Auckland.

At the time of posting last night, 27 May, the link was to the landing coming in from Sydney, with the 'U' shape on the way in. I've tried to add the archived link now, but if it doesn't work, it is dated 27 May: SQ7290 (SIA7290) Singapore Airlines Flight Tracking and History 27-May-2020 (SYD / YSSY-MEL / YMML) - FlightAware
Oh I see now. Thanks for that. Yes it is unusual. Aircraft coming from SYD will be cleared for the LIZZI arrival. It looks all normal for a runway 27 approach, including a 9000ft requirement at the first turn there, but then either a runway change has happened (more than likely, being MEL), the wind at the time was only a northerly at 14kts, or they've gotten too high on the approach for runway 27.

Coming in from SYD, there's a sneaky controlled airspace step where we won't be cleared below 9000ft until 30nm, and then again at 5000ft by 20nm. For Runway 27 however and especially if a high speed has been given, that can leave you high for the approach as you struggle to slow down and get down. Maybe it's not an issue if you're aware of it on the 744, but the 737 doesn't like that very much (to go down AND slow down at the same time).
 

AviatorInsight

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Last year in Washington (the state), US, I watched a 747-8 freighter pass low overhead, gear down, heap of flap, presumably on final for the local airport.

It was interesting to hear the engines changing pitch as they presumably spooling up, then down and so on as it passed overhead.

Now, would the engines still be on auto-throttle at this point, or being controlled by the flying pilot?
Depending on the conditions, I would normally prefer to disengage the autothrottle (the 737 sucks at holding speed even with it in), so I like to kick it out early if it's gusty and just do it myself.

The operations on the 777 was to leave the auto throttle in, in all conditions (it was much more speed stable) right through to the rollout. So in answer to your question it could have been either, but if they're changing rapidly then more than likely it would have been manual control.
 

MEL_Traveller

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Oh I see now. Thanks for that. Yes it is unusual. Aircraft coming from SYD will be cleared for the LIZZI arrival. It looks all normal for a runway 27 approach, including a 9000ft requirement at the first turn there, but then either a runway change has happened (more than likely, being MEL), the wind at the time was only a northerly at 14kts, or they've gotten too high on the approach for runway 27.

Coming in from SYD, there's a sneaky controlled airspace step where we won't be cleared below 9000ft until 30nm, and then again at 5000ft by 20nm. For Runway 27 however and especially if a high speed has been given, that can leave you high for the approach as you struggle to slow down and get down. Maybe it's not an issue if you're aware of it on the 744, but the 737 doesn't like that very much (to go down AND slow down at the same time).
Thanks! Well i can vouch... if they were too high for the original approach they were making up for it on the alternative. They were noticeably low, and slow! It just seemed like a waste of fuel on such a big detour... was hoping it wasn't ATC trying to spread the noise around or whatever.
 

AviatorInsight

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was hoping it wasn't ATC trying to spread the noise around or whatever.
Definitely wasn’t noise spreading. If they had been given runway 34 from the start the arrival takes them from the ranges to overhead the city for a long final, well clear of the eastern suburbs.
 

jb747

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Last year in Washington (the state), US, I watched a 747-8 freighter pass low overhead, gear down, heap of flap, presumably on final for the local airport.

It was interesting to hear the engines changing pitch as they presumably spooling up, then down and so on as it passed overhead.

Now, would the engines still be on auto-throttle at this point, or being controlled by the flying pilot?
There's no set rule for when and where the automatics are engaged. I'd expect that the 747-8 has a full flight regime autothrottle, in which case it could be left in at all times, even if the aircraft is being manually flown. Generally though, Boeing pilots have always used a manual flight/manual throttle rule.

The A380 auto thrust was left engaged all of the time. In 5,000 hours, apart from the sim, I only ever used it manually (on approach) once.
Post automatically merged:

What “accessories” do the accessory gearbox in the aircraft engines power?
Engine driven hydraulic pumps. Generators. Mechanical fuel and oil pumps. That sort of thing.
 

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