Ask The Pilot

Is it true that in the early days of the 380 it was difficult to crew as people didn’t want to move on to it? I happen to know of one current skipper (RD, rostered to take QF1 out this arvo I believe) but I’m not sure how senior he is or what fleet he was previously on.

The RD on that flight is a first officer. Off the top of my head, I don't know what he was on previously. His number is high enough for a 737 command, but I don't think it would get him on to a wide body.

In the early days of most fleets there's quite a bit of holding off, to see how things pan out. In the case of the 380, there were probably quite a few Boeing people who hoped the company would eventually get some 777s. Others might have waited until more aircraft arrived, and the route structure improved. Neither happened, so some expected slots never opened up.

It's always a bit of a strategic gamble, as to whether you should jump early, or wait a while. I've always gone with jump early, but I can see the other side.
 
The RD on that flight is a first officer. Off the top of my head, I don't know what he was on previously. His number is high enough for a 737 command, but I don't think it would get him on to a wide body.

I must be mistaken then and it’s not today or he’s somewhere else in the pattern. Strange coincidence if the FO shares the same initials.
 
I must be mistaken then and it’s not today or he’s somewhere else in the pattern. Strange coincidence if the FO shares the same initials.

Ok, the other RD is operating a different sector. He's ex 767 and 747 command. Senior to me.
 
Ok, the other RD is operating a different sector. He's ex 767 and 747 command. Senior to me.
How does seniority work in practice? Are you assigned a number upon joining that gets lower as folk above you move on?

Does it appear with your roster/an internal system etc?
 
The easiest way to think of seniority is to consider it your place in a queue. You are given a number the day you join. If I recall correctly, within a course it was given based on the number of hours you had when you joined. Each year it goes up as people ahead of you retire, or move on.

When a new type appears, or annual leave, or anything really, we bid for it. Then it will be allocated based on seniority. Note that seniority does not get you a promotion. It simply allows you to bid for the course...you still have to be recommended (by training) and then pass. If nobody wants something, then the company will assign the positions, in reverse seniority.

As it turns out, people want all sorts of different things, so the upshot is that the most senior people are scattered all over the fleets.

You can work out your theoretical lowest number easily enough. How many people are senior to you, but also younger? They'll outlast you, so that's as low as you'll get. Many years ago, one of the pilots wrote an application which would look at this, and project it for each year. What was notable was the way there would be relative stagnation for long periods, followed by years of huge jumps, as large groups retired. This program fell by the wayside many years ago, and also the retirement age assumptions it was based on have also changed as the age has been moved a couple of times. What it did imply though, was that turning recruitment on and off, making it function like an accordion, was a folly. It generates troughs of promotion stagnation, followed by overwhelming bursts of training/promotion. Conversely, a slow and steady system, which in some years might take a few more than needed, but overall averages out, made for a much more balanced progression.
 
Last edited:
As it turns out, people want all sorts of different things, so the upshot is that the most senior people are scattered all over the fleets.
And I can only guess at the office politics that goes on within the flying group...
 
Sponsored Post

Struggling to use your Frequent Flyer Points?

Frequent Flyer Concierge takes the hard work out of finding award availability and redeeming your frequent flyer or credit card points for flights.

Using their expert knowledge and specialised tools, the Frequent Flyer Concierge team at Frequent Flyer Concierge will help you book a great trip that maximises the value for your points.

Have any of the pilots experienced this "dirty socks" odour or any problems with fumes such as this incident ?

Accident: Spirit A319 at Boston on Jul 17th 2015, fumes on board, captain died 50 days later

Nope never. Although it’s a shame the Assistant Chief Pilot came onto the aircraft and told off the crew for returning, making them feel guilty and so they continued on a couple more sectors. If any management pilot came onto the aircraft to tell myself or anyone else off about returning, they’d be more than welcome to take the keys and go for a spin themselves.
 
The Frequent Flyer Concierge team takes the hard work out of finding reward seat availability. Using their expert knowledge and specialised tools, they'll help you book a great trip that maximises the value for your points.

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

Have any of the pilots experienced this "dirty socks" odour or any problems with fumes such as this incident ?

Accident: Spirit A319 at Boston on Jul 17th 2015, fumes on board, captain died 50 days later

A most interesting article.

Given the amount of flying that happens, the vast majority of which is in aircraft with bleed based pressurisation systems, the incidence of this would overall seem to be low. Whilst the article implies that it's underreported (massively), you'd also expect it to be a hot topic of conversation amongst the crews, and it isn't. So, if it's happening a lot, but not being experienced by most, then that would imply that it tends to be isolated to either particular aircraft/engine combinations, or aircraft owned/serviced by particular airlines. The Bae 146 is the only case I can think of in which all operators seemed to have issues.

I've only seen a couple of cases of fumes in all of my flying. One was in a single seat military aircraft, which doesn't really count, especially as you wore an oxygen mask at all times. The other was a 767 in which I was a passenger. The fumes in that case came from air conditioning systems that had been refurbished, and a chemical cleaner had not been totally removed from the system's surfaces. That aircraft was diverted into Canberra in very short order.

The comment about the deputy chief pilot coming on to the aircraft, and basically bullying the crew to continue is extraordinary. I guess that's what you get with a combination of weak regulation, contracts and union....something the MoLs of the world love.
 
flybyNZ.JPG

G'day there, just a simple question: what is the vertical and horizontal separations during cruise? The above photo was halfway between AKL and RAR - so open ocean in the south pacific, at cruising altitude. We were in an NZ 787, this a few days ago. We all saw the plane come past in the opposite direction, and it felt VERY close and the closing speed/difference meant it absolutely "shot past" - I couldn't believe my daughter got the photo - she was taking a random photo of the pretty sky!! (The fly past actually alarmed my family and the pax behind them who were also looking out that window.)

And is there different separation distances for oncoming vs aircraft heading in same direction?
 
Anything from FL290-FL410 inclusive can have a minimum separation of 1000ft. With GPS today being flown so accurately, it’s not uncommon to have aircraft on the same airway pass directly 1000ft above/below.
 
Are routes like juddles described - relatively low density of flights and 'lots of space', still demarked in 'lanes' going each way and if so, why would they be demarked as close together as the minimum separation? Both then would be the most direct line, I imagine, but I don't think air traffic control care about fuel burn, do they?
 
Are routes like juddles described - relatively low density of flights and 'lots of space', still demarked in 'lanes' going each way and if so, why would they be demarked as close together as the minimum separation? Both then would be the most direct line, I imagine, but I don't think air traffic control care about fuel burn, do they?

Going across the Pacific you can usually see which airlines have the same kind of flight planning software, because most flights over low density airspace follow a user preferred route (UPR) instead of an actual airway. This gives the flight the most economical route according to the winds aloft and fastest flight time. The airspace between FL290-FL410 allows for this reduced vertical separation from 2000ft to 1000ft and in turn allows us to fly at optimum levels for best economy.

And no, ATC don’t care about our fuel burn.
 
Going across the Pacific you can usually see which airlines have the same kind of flight planning software, because most flights over low density airspace follow a user preferred route (UPR) instead of an actual airway. This gives the flight the most economical route according to the winds aloft and fastest flight time. The airspace between FL290-FL410 allows for this reduced vertical separation from 2000ft to 1000ft and in turn allows us to fly at optimum levels for best economy.

And no, ATC don’t care about our fuel burn.

Thanks AI,

and a followup question: (forgiving my ignorance) what system or procedure advises each of the two aircraft of the existence of the other? 2000km off into the deep ocean off NZ, I would imagine there is no radar coverage. So is it the ATC that is responsible for this airspace (if there is such) to advise each pilot? Or is it an onboard system (ACAS/ASAS)?

P.S. and I understood from your post that it is only a vertical separation limit that applies? No horizontal minimums?
 
Horizontal standards most certainly exist, but they vary depending upon the airway being flown and the navigation system controlling it. Mid Pacific it's in the order of 30-50 nm, between CPDLC equipped aircraft. But of course, that only applies to aircraft at the same level. There is no lateral separation of aircraft at different levels.

We don't necessarily have any knowledge of other aircraft. TCAS will show them once within about 60-80 nm.

1,000' vertical separation actually allows us to hear some aircraft.
 
......1,000' vertical separation actually allows us to hear some aircraft.

jb, I am, due to previous work, reasonably good at judging distances / etc. And I have a sound grasp of physics, etc. I was not alarmed, as were other pax, at this passing over the sea, but I also understood that at those closing speeds there is little room for error - God bless modern GPS.

I did not hear the other aircraft. But I did still question why, in an industry that is so amazingly driven by safety, that you would want two opposing aircraft to come so close, in such a big area. I feel there is no reason for this. Veering 2km either side in a 4000km flight is meaningless to fuel consumption.
 
I did not hear the other aircraft.

We know it's going to happen, so we can listen for it. Also, I've never heard it from the cabin, only the coughpit. And only in the 380.

But I did still question why, in an industry that is so amazingly driven by safety, that you would want two opposing aircraft to come so close, in such a big area. I feel there is no reason for this. Veering 2km either side in a 4000km flight is meaningless to fuel consumption.

In many cases there are airways paralleling each other, so unless that 2km diversion is approved, then you're starting to eat into the lateral separation. In places the separation is in the order of 5nm....so you do not deviate at all from what ATC have you doing. There are places where offsets are used.

But, crossing the Pacific or Indian Oceans you don't necessarily use fixed tracks. An offset from a company track has no relevance to what is effectively random tracking.
 
Separation standards i.e. the vertical and horiontal distances that ATC keep between aircraft are developed based on analysis of aircraft and pilot performance over years.

We know that pilots are capable of maintaining their aircraft height to within x feet and tracking to within y nautical miles so we apply vertical separation of x+z feet and horizontal separation of y+z nautical miles where z is a significant safety buffer.

Deviating any further in your case would have added only a tiny fraction of increased safety between these two aircraft because the separation standard being applied has already included a significant safety buffer.

It's like wearing elastic-waisted pants with a belt and braces but asking for a second belt 'just in case'. You can keep loading yourself up with second braces and a third belt etc. but if the goal is to leave the house, eventually you have to stop putting on clothes and accept that you've reduced the risk of your pants falling down to an acceptable probability.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top