Ask The Pilot

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
JB747 Thanks for your reply on varying altitudes. Do the airlines work out ideal altitude or is this done by ATC?

ATC's job is to keep the aircraft apart, not to make their operation efficient!!!!

A company will flight plan based upon the weather forecasts, and will adjust cruising levels to allow for expected winds. The crew make the actual decisions as to what levels are flown (or at least what they request from ATC).

Next question please...a few flights I've taken have had a Captain in the FO seat. Where there are two Captains on duty which one is the Captain of the flight - is it purely based on seniority? In an Airbus how does a Captain go from being in the left seat with left-handed control to the right seat if required? Does it just come back to you?

A captain in the right hand seat generally means that there's training happening, and the bloke in the left seat is under training. QF never uses a line captain to replace the FO, but they may replace an SO. If you happen to have two or more captains in the crew, the company will have nominated the actual Captain. Seniority doesn't come into play.

Handedness is just something you have to come to terms with. The Airbus is no different to the Boeing...if you sit on the left, you fly with the left, and vice versa. You'll have to change at various times in your career anyway. Most GA pilots learn to fly with their left hand, so an airline job means going to the right seat and changing hands. Command training changes it again. In my case, I learnt to fly with the right (using a joystick), and didn't fly with my left until 767 command training. There are so many other things happening that it just happens, although you do occasionally hear of some strange manipulations that sound like left and right being confused.
 

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
On Wednesday this week , I was coming home from work when I
witnessed , what i thought was a very close Take off / Landing sequence on 34L in SYD between 2 x EK A380's . EK 412 was over the 34L threshold while EK 415 was taking off still on the runway just passing the old tower . I thought this was cutting very fine to the point I thought EK412 probably should have done a go around.

I think I'll trust ATC with this. They have a much better view, and also radar data, as well as experience to guide them. Most likely the landing aircraft would have been told to expect a late clearance, which will help to preclude him initiating a go around.

The A380 is a particularly difficult aircraft for ATC to fit between arrivals, as it is slow to move on the ground, and the engines spool up very slowly from idle, as well as having a nasty 'memory' effect if you happen to use asymmetric power followed by a rapid thrust increase (you end up with a mix of rapid spool up and very slow).
 

markis10

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
30,449
Points
10
JB,

On Wednesday this week , I was coming home from work when I
witnessed , what i thought was a very close Take off / Landing sequence on 34L in SYD between 2 x EK A380's . EK 412 was over the 34L threshold while EK 415 was taking off still on the runway just passing the old tower . I thought this was cutting very fine to the point I thought EK412 probably should have done a go around.

It was not quite that close, the departure was past 07/25

ek.jpg
 

Mattg

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
11,556
Solutions
18
Points
1,560
Qantas
Gold
Virgin
Gold
Hi JB,
As we touched down in SYD this afternoon in a 767 there was a loud screeching noise, lasting around 2-3 seconds as if we were skidding on the runway. Do you know why this might happen and is it normal?
 

Melburnian1

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
21,572
Points
1,515
ATC's job is to keep the aircraft apart, not to make their operation efficient!!!!

It would be interesting to know at the busier peak times of each day (particularly Mondays, Fridays morning and evening and Sunday afternoons/ early evening) what the average number of minutes is that aircraft spend in a holding pattern, and secondly for how long they are asked by ATC to slow down when approaching their destination airport.

Of the three largest east coast airports, BNE may well be the worst affected with its single runway operations, followed by SYD and then MEL. I realise weather conditions will never be identical at all three, though it's possible for all to have benign flying conditions.

For more regular business flyers than me, the east coast (or sometimes ex west coast) speech from a flight crew member about how 'air traffic control has just slowed us down, so we now expect to arrive in .... at .... ' must be almost as routine as bad airline coffee.

This must waste a lot of fuel and be a headache to airline bean counters.
 

nlagalle

Senior Member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
6,003
Points
855
Qantas
Platinum
For more regular business flyers than me, the east coast (or sometimes ex west coast) speech from a flight crew member about how 'air traffic control has just slowed us down, so we now expect to arrive in .... at .... ' must be almost as routine as bad airline coffee.

Actually I don't hear it all that often (and I fly weekly). Generally if the weather is bad in one location, you know there will be a delay somewhere. I know sometimes in the morning they will hold the flight on the ground, but i haven't had that for some time now.
 

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
Hi JB,
As we touched down in SYD this afternoon in a 767 there was a loud screeching noise, lasting around 2-3 seconds as if we were skidding on the runway. Do you know why this might happen and is it normal?

Perhaps it was skidding on the runway. The tyres are doing zero mph before you touch down, so for the first second or so, they do skid....
 

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
Actually I don't hear it all that often (and I fly weekly). Generally if the weather is bad in one location, you know there will be a delay somewhere. I know sometimes in the morning they will hold the flight on the ground, but i haven't had that for some time now.

The joys of mostly flying the 2 or 10 into Oz. I haven't been held in Australia much at all in recent years.

In London you'll have no holding if you can land before 6am, and lots after. Dubai seems to always have a couple of turns around the pattern. Singapore was once good, but now holding and/or early descents are the norm (early descents give a lower TAS and higher fuel flow). In LA you never hold, and on they way to NYC, nothing but....
 
Virgin Wines Australia Has Exceptional Red, White & Sparkling Wines On Offer. See Online. See Our Exclusive Wine Selections From Around Australia & Around The World. Shop Now! Advent Calendar 2021. Better Wines for Less. Cancel Anytime. No Membership Fees.

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

RooFlyer

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
19,443
Solutions
2
Points
3,125
Qantas
Platinum
JB, going back to your post 4622, and markis10's illustration, what would have happened if EK412 had to abort its landing "at the last moment" (I dunno - sees something metal on the runway) ?

The mug's view would be that 412 would be pulling up and accelerating, and heading straight towards the just airborne aircraft in front which at that stage would be going quite a bit slower.

I'm guessing the following craft would have to immediately turn left or right to avoid jetwash if nothing else, and that would take it into areas possibly being used by other aircraft using the other runways.

No doubt you sim this but if you were driving the following craft would it at least get your pulse racing a bit and make for an interesting day?

Regards
 

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
JB, going back to your post 4622, and markis10's illustration, what would have happened if EK412 had to abort its landing "at the last moment" (I dunno - sees something metal on the runway) ?

The mug's view would be that 412 would be pulling up and accelerating, and heading straight towards the just airborne aircraft in front which at that stage would be going quite a bit slower.

I'm guessing the following craft would have to immediately turn left or right to avoid jetwash if nothing else, and that would take it into areas possibly being used by other aircraft using the other runways.

No doubt you sim this but if you were driving the following craft would it at least get your pulse racing a bit and make for an interesting day?

It does seem messy, but it isn't as bad as it looks. Firstly, the landing aircraft would be travelling a lot slower than the departing one, and they'd both start accelerating at the same altitude, so, if anything, the departing aircraft would actually move away from the trailing 380. Secondly, the go around procedure involves a turn to the left at 500', so the trailing aircraft would also very quickly take up a separating track.
 

RooFlyer

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
19,443
Solutions
2
Points
3,125
Qantas
Platinum
It does seem messy, but it isn't as bad as it looks. Firstly, the landing aircraft would be travelling a lot slower than the departing one, and they'd both start accelerating at the same altitude, so, if anything, the departing aircraft would actually move away from the trailing 380. Secondly, the go around procedure involves a turn to the left at 500', so the trailing aircraft would also very quickly take up a separating track.

Whew. Thanks again!
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
286
Points
10
It would be interesting to know at the busier peak times of each day (particularly Mondays, Fridays morning and evening and Sunday afternoons/ early evening) what the average number of minutes is that aircraft spend in a holding pattern, and secondly for how long they are asked by ATC to slow down when approaching their destination airport.

Of the three largest east coast airports, BNE may well be the worst affected with its single runway operations, followed by SYD and then MEL. I realise weather conditions will never be identical at all three, though it's possible for all to have benign flying conditions.

For more regular business flyers than me, the east coast (or sometimes ex west coast) speech from a flight crew member about how 'air traffic control has just slowed us down, so we now expect to arrive in .... at .... ' must be almost as routine as bad airline coffee.

This must waste a lot of fuel and be a headache to airline bean counters.

Forgive the lengthy and slightly OT post but as a current ATC here in Aus, I thought I'd take the opportunity to provide a little insight for those whom are interested.

These continual delays are also a headache for ATC as well - believe me. Generally speaking, into SYD & BNE, aircrew are instructed by ATC to begin slowing down from about 150-200NM from destination. This is dependent on the length of delay and traffic disposition at the time. Until that point they are not "locked in" to the sequence (of arriving aircraft) and any slowdown will mean they will begin moving back a couple of slots in the sequence (e.g. you were No. 3 but you become No. 5). This is mainly due to the way our sequencing/flow system (named MAESTRO) operates but it also allows the sequence to be efficient in regards to slotting in aircraft that depart out of ports close to destination (eg. YWLM for SYD or YSCB for SYD) as well as aircraft requiring priority for whatever reason (usually Air Ambulance/Flying Doctor MEDEVAC flights)

Actually I don't hear it all that often (and I fly weekly). Generally if the weather is bad in one location, you know there will be a delay somewhere. I know sometimes in the morning they will hold the flight on the ground, but i haven't had that for some time now.

In the past year or so airborne holding for SYD and, to a lesser extent, BNE has been reduced by the introduction of a ground delay program called METRON. So now, all things running smoothly, runway demand for a major aerodrome such as SYD or BNE is constantly monitored and updated throughout the day and when it is projected that demand outstrips capacity, aircraft will be given a delay on the ground (at the gate - usually) at their departure point. Thus, it saves them spinning around o/head the Gold Coast burning fuel. Of course, the system has its flaws and limitations (which, for brevity's sake I won't discuss) and it can only reduce delays by so much because at the end of the day the problem is, and has been for many years, real estate... i.e. too many planes and not enough runways. In the meantime, we are looking at numerous other options to try and make the use of airspace and aerodromes as absolutely efficient as possible. You will all appreciate though that these things take time - any change to procedures/airspace design etc. in the ATC world have to be thoroughly planned for to ensure that, above all else, the safety of aircraft (and by extension you, as passengers on those birds) is not jeopardised in any manner.

From an ATC perspective we are frustrated at the situation just like pilots are, just like airlines ops are and just like you, the flying public are. Holding increases our workload dramatically (not to mention the complexity is exponentially higher!) and we want to avoid having that occur as much as anyone else I can absolutely assure you. In the case of SYD, holding sometimes kicks in because of the need for SYD to operate on runway configurations that are much less efficient (i.e. less movements per hour) due to "noise sharing" requirements. I cannot describe how frustrating it is to have to delay aircraft, costing time and money, because of political reasons - it's really hard to swallow.

Anyway, apologies for the thread drift and I hope this makes the mud ever slightly more clearer from the ATC perspective.

Cheers.
 

warpspeed

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
41
Points
65
I hear the EK 77W depart each night from YPAD, when it departs off of 05 over the city, almost immediately after takefoff it sounds like they back off on the thrust. I've looked at a few vids of noise abatement on yt, and most seem to happen at 1500 feet. I don't think the EK 77W is getting to 1500 feet before easing back on the thrust. At a guess I'd say they be at 500-700 feet.

Interested to know what the critical points are with these sorts of procedures in particular how soon after rotation can one back off on the thrust? Does it change the profile of thrust on the ground, and v speeds,etc.

i.e. if thrust reduction is required airborne, do you have a higher rotation speed/longer takeoff roll so you're carrying more speed into the air? Do you make the climb more shallow/raise flaps earlier to carry more speed with less thrust?
 
Last edited:

LiamR

Established Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
2,633
Points
605
A little off topic but some might be interested to know I started my aerobatics endorsement today:

IMG_6801.jpg
 

simongr

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
14,426
Points
0
Might I suggest that the last couple of pages don't belong in this thread....

Anyway, looking ahead.....

31/8 QF1 SYD-DXB
2/9 QF1 DXB-LHR
5/9 QF10 LHR-DXB
7/9 QF10 DXB-MEL

20/9 QF1 SYD-DXB
22/9 QF1 DXB-LHR
25/9 QF10 LHR-DXB
27/9 QF10 DXB-MEL

7/10 QF1 SYD-DXB
9/10 QF1 DXB-LHR
12/10 QF10 LHR-DXB
14/10 QF10 DXB-MEL

Darn - I have been waiting for your Sep/Oct schedule for some time - looks like you wont be steering my flights on 16 Sep (SYD-DXB) and 5 Oct (DXB-SYD). Hopefully the pilot will be accommodating with a request for the small boy to see the coughpit at the end of the flight...
 

Ansett

Established Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
3,711
Points
845
Qantas
Platinum 1
Virgin
Red
Might I suggest that the last couple of pages don't belong in this thread....

Anyway, looking ahead.....

31/8 QF1 SYD-DXB
2/9 QF1 DXB-LHR
5/9 QF10 LHR-DXB
7/9 QF10 DXB-MEL

20/9 QF1 SYD-DXB
22/9 QF1 DXB-LHR
25/9 QF10 LHR-DXB
27/9 QF10 DXB-MEL

7/10 QF1 SYD-DXB
9/10 QF1 DXB-LHR
12/10 QF10 LHR-DXB
14/10 QF10 DXB-MEL

Mrs Ansett and I will be on this flight :D Will have to say Hi. Sadly we are in 66D and E
 

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
​JB interested in your thoughts on this, whether you'd do such a thing, safety aspects, etc, and whether an airbus under normal law would ordinarily permit such a thing, or whether they'd have to override it.

Unbelievable passenger jet stunt - YouTube

Stupid, dumb, and as near to being an accident as possible.

Laws aren't relevant to this aircraft as it doesn't have any. In any event they won't save you from yourself. The normal law limits are 67º of bank, +30º/-15º pitch.
 

jb747

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
10,943
Points
1,770
I hear the EK 77W depart each night from YPAD, when it departs off of 05 over the city, almost immediately after takefoff it sounds like they back off on the thrust. I've looked at a few vids of noise abatement on yt, and most seem to happen at 1500 feet. I don't think the EK 77W is getting to 1500 feet before easing back on the thrust. At a guess I'd say they be at 500-700 feet.

Interested to know what the critical points are with these sorts of procedures in particular how soon after rotation can one back off on the thrust?

There are lots of variations on this. About 800' is the minimum, but it will vary with aircraft type and each individual operator. Mostly the 380 uses 1,500', but that is sometimes extended higher. 747 and 767 normally reduce power at 1,000', and sometimes 1,500'.

Noise reduction profiles don't actually reduce the noise. Actually they can make more of it. What they do do is change where it happens. Our preferred mode would be to reduce power at about 1,000' and to then immmediately accelerate. The puts the noise in close to the airfield. Most noise profiles make slightly less noise, but over a much bigger footprint.

Due to the way that derating is being calculated these days, the selection of climb thrust won't necessarily result in less power. The 380 might use as little as 67% for takeoff, but at the thrust 'reduction' altitude, it will go to the selected climb thrust level...the minimum of which is around 80%.

Quite a few things affect the exact profile that we fly. Whilst airports seem to love imposing noise profiles, the SIDs also impose height profiles. Many of these are a struggle to reach, which in turn means that we'll use more power just to reach an often arbitrary altitude.

Does it change the profile of thrust on the ground, and v speeds,etc.

Noise doesn't. The Vspeeds and power settings are chosen for the take off performance that we want. It is possible that an obstacle after take off could come into play, but it would most likely have the effect of reducing the weight available to us.

i.e. if thrust reduction is required airborne, do you have a higher rotation speed/longer takeoff roll so you're carrying more speed into the air? Do you make the climb more shallow/raise flaps earlier to carry more speed with less thrust?

No. The target speed is the target speed. If you reduce the thrust, you'll need to reduce the pitch slightly.
 
Top