Article: Qantas’ First A321XLRs Won’t Have Lie-Flat Business Seats

[cbourl]

The writeup about Qatar and Virgin Australia tie up in The Australian up is an interesting read, and clearly some people have red faces over the deal.. It also mentions the ACCC and the Virgin Australia United tie up, yet nothing about Qantas disputing the tieup after the article, posted yesterday, was added to today to add this ACCC quote
"
On Thursday, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission gave interim authorisation for the codeshare arrangement between Virgin and United.

The move meant United could set the fares at which Virgin was able to sell the services operated by the US carrier.

ACCC commissioner Stephen Ridgeway said they took the view the partnership was in the public benefit because it would likely help Virgin re-establish its international network.

“Currently, it appears that Virgin Australia is unlikely to be able to operate its own long-haul international services in the short term,” said Mr Ridgeway."

QF and VA has also operated DPS-East Coast redeyes for years prior to the COVID shutdowns in March 2020. But taking into consideration that market is largely low yielding/budget, a lie flat wouldn't be ideal in most cases (and would largely be a waste when they can be better utilised on more high yielding routes).

Yes a very non-premium market

And a reasonable piece today in The Australian

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/how-much-is-qantas-worth-depends-who-you-ask/news-story/b1672750eb5b1894b43119fb64fe621c

Seems it is not only some of us who have reservations about Sunrise and Mr Joyce's ruthlessness and failings especially over Easter this year when he blamed his incompetence (as CEO) on travellers

 

[moa999]

Qantas, are we are fully aware ,is decades behind, like their "priority" boarding

Who needs priority boarding when as an elite FFer you can stay in the lounge until Final Boarding/ Last Call.

In the US, as a FFer you don't get into the lounge, and turn up near Last Call and you'll find your seat has gone to someone on the reserve list.

 

[JohnPhelan]

Maybe you haven't flow American Airlines A321T (transcontinental ) JFK-SFO/LAX vv Dont talk about Delta, we also have United Polaris 757, 789 and 787-10 transcon In the US market Delta is like Qantas, aka a bragging obviously low cost carrier charging 5 Star prices, perfect for those from the South of USA

I have flown on AA's A321Ts on several occasions and find them very good in Business with seats that convert to flat beds (though I have never used them in flat mode because the flights are only about 5 hours long). If Qantas equips some of its A321-XLR fleet in that config, that will be fine for flights to relatively close Asian ports. But the aircraft that are doing only Australian domestic and trans-Tasman flights don't need flat beds - it makes no business sense.

And what does your remark about people from the American south mean? Hopefully it's not supposed to be some infantile broad-brush insult.

 

[cbourl]

I have flown on AA's A321Ts on several occasions and find them very good in Business with seats that convert to flat beds (though I have never used them in flat mode because the flights are only about 5 hours long). If Qantas equips some of its A321-XLR fleet in that config, that will be fine for flights to relatively close Asian ports. But the aircraft that are doing only Australian domestic and trans-Tasman flights don't need flat beds - it makes no business sense.

And what does your remark about people from the American south mean? Hopefully it's not supposed to be some infantile broad-brush insult.

Business on the A321Ts is ok If like many Americans, you are up early, on NYC time and fly to the West Coast, and return the same day the 6 hours require a full flat bed. I've only AA A321T Business once when flying Qantas to JFK from Sydney and we arrived 1 hour late at LAX, and Qantas didn't keep the 747 waiting for its own airline's passengers so we were all rebooked on American. Flagship First is much nicer, with the Cathay style Business seats, 1-1, and this is what I flew regularly pre COVID, along with United Polaris on 757/777/787-10 Sorry not all of us like to sit up all the time, otherwise we would be flying Y . The point of an A321XLR is the XLR and being flexible with aircraft and at the same time providing a premium product. Otherwise fly a normal A321neo

 

[Daver6]

I've experienced this many times on QF - more often drink orders, but often both.

That's positive news. I don't fly business frequently but I've NEVER had this experience. Is it perhaps something they do on the shorter SYD-MEL flights perhaps? Would make sense I suppose.

 

[Bundy Bear]

Would short haul international need 20, I can’t see a sub-fleet for domestic, not unless new planes were coming in faster.

 

[cbourl]

That's positive news. I don't fly business frequently but I've NEVER had this experience. Is it perhaps something they do on the shorter SYD-MEL flights perhaps? Would make sense I suppose.

Same here, I've only experienced it On United,Swiss, Lufthansa and American Airlines.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I have flown on AA's A321Ts on several occasions and find them very good in Business with seats that convert to flat beds (though I have never used them in flat mode because the flights are only about 5 hours long). If Qantas equips some of its A321-XLR fleet in that config, that will be fine for flights to relatively close Asian ports. But the aircraft that are doing only Australian domestic and trans-Tasman flights don't need flat beds - it makes no business sense.

And what does your remark about people from the American south mean? Hopefully it's not supposed to be some infantile broad-brush insult.

I get confused about the so called ‘economics’. SQ has converted - or is in the final stages of converting - their 737s to full flat beds… their advertising is that you can now enjoy a bed on even the shortest of flights. So there must be a business case in that sense. While their 737s do some longer flights like CNS, they are also on the KUL and HKT sectors… one hour and two hours respectively.

FlyDubai also has a mix of shorter and longer, but again full flats.

Maybe the economics come down to differentiating from the competition?

 

[drron]

And today we had the long haul version of the A350 on SQ. BKK-SIN. A definite short haul route.

 

[cbourl]

And today we had the long haul version of the A350 on SQ. BKK-SIN. A definite short haul route.

Yes We like flat beds for medium hauls. Used to fly Lufti 747 Business/First Frankfurt to Tel Aviv or A3460 600 C/F Munich to Tel Aviv. Then Lufti swapped to an A321 and we now go Swiss - 777/A330 First with Business service for the 3.5 hours from Zueri to Tel Avivi (mind you with Business down it it quickly swapped also to an A321 with eurobusiness so then we thought Qatar to Amman First and a short 50 minute on a Royal Jordanian A321 to Tel Avivi Airlines cater to their market, and Qantas has made a decision to cater to its (non-discerning) market

 

[cbourl]

Used to love Thai First for the five hours to Hong Kong on the A380, and still present Singapore Air 777 First for the short Singapore - Hong Kong and vv routes. These airlines like most others worldwide cater to their markets. We will have a state carrier (since it was state funded/bailed out without repayment throughout COVID) called Qantas which caters to our market so Forget Flat

 

[Vic]

In the US market Delta is like Qantas, aka a bragging obviously low cost carrier charging 5 Star prices, perfect for those from the South of USA

I'm not sure what you mean about Delta. my fairly limited experience has found Delta to be less expensive than AA, and they have beds for transcon flights... that was in a 757... lol

 

[moa999]

Until we know where these aircraft will fly it's hard to comment. The 321XLR are primarily domestic aircraft and the proposed seats are perfectly adequate for that task.

Other than fleet commonality you've got to question though why Qantas wants the XLR which presumably costs and weighs more for shorter flights.

I'm sure future orders will have different layouts.

 

[encryptededdy]

Other than fleet commonality you've got to question though why Qantas wants the XLR which presumably costs and weighs more for shorter flights.

Yeah, I was wondering this. Is the flexibility really worth that much to be flying a XLR on 1 hour hops between SYD and MEL?

 

[exceladdict]

Just noticed this article about a concept at United - hoping QF will change their mind still...

United Airlines Tips Hand On New A321XLR Polaris Seat (Pictures) - Live and Let's Fly

A patent filing by United Airlines gives us a hint of what kind of Polaris Business Class seat to expect on the Airbus A321XLR.

liveandletsfly.com

 

[1022]

I can’t say I’m a fan of old school herringbone but in the confines of a narrow body it might be the best and only economically viable way of providing lie-flat, aisle access to everyone. Surely QF won’t be sending cradle J seats on flights like MNL or CGK with overnight flights back to Australia, so they’ll need something better than domestic Y for an international sub fleet…surely…

 

[Thrawn]

MNL and CGK is notorious for having very low J demand. J is often discounted heavily and easy award availability. Qantas can easily get away with non-flat beds in these routes.

Can’t do that for SIN

 

[dajop]

Big late to the party, but amused me the comparison with US domestic trans con. Australia trans con is different market.

MEL-PER is slightly shorter than ORD-LAX (and with lower population bases) which doesn’t see lie flat and SYD-PER closer to ATL-LAX which also doesn’t routinely see lie flats either IIRC.

And TBH QF now doesn’t and probably won’t have significant competition on transcons for some time. Can’t see VA suddenly repeating their mistakes of the past. Whilst in the US you have three carriers who arguably also compete somewhat with private jets on trans con. Chalk and cheese really.

 

[offshore171]

Are lie flats common on single aisle planes?

 

[eastwest101]

Yeah, I was wondering this. Is the flexibility really worth that much to be flying a XLR on 1 hour hops between SYD and MEL?

Yeah - I don't get this "fleet commonality" thing with QF using A320XLR's on 1-2 hour hops in the Golden Triangle, thats a stupid use of an aircraft with long-range being used on short hops, may as well fly B789s between SYD and MEL while they are at it. It's like using a Ferrari to take your trailer to the rubbish dump, sure you can do it, but its not the most logical use of the machine. Why not just replace the B738 fleet with A320ceos or A320neos like every normal airline in the world that has the range for Australian domestic flights and most short haul international? If they are gate slot/constrained and want additional domestic capacity then get A321ceos or A321neos which have the extra capacity but not the extra range/weight penalty, current A320ceos/320neos/321ceos/321neos have the range for most domestic stuff, and some short-haul international. Sure the A320XLRs will have a great range and open up new long-haul possibilities, so why not use them and configure them for the long haul as a sub fleet?

I think the QF fleet planners have fallen in love with the fleet commonality argument and forgotten about aircraft capability, efficiency/best utilization, and return on capital. Different members of the A320 and A321 family are better at different things and some are available now and some are still paper aeroplanes - Airbus tells us that - so why can't QF management understand this?

Agree with others that without VA A332 flying around in the past QF would be giving us A330 Jetstar starclass 7 abreast recliners masquerading as business class. Currently with VA hobbled by a lack of widebodies and without international presence, QF has no competition and no competitive pressure to innovate or offer anything beyond the bare minimum. I can see them trying to fly long-haul A320XLRs with recliners and having their cough handed to them by other carriers with superior widebody economics and products.