Argh! I've joined Velocity! Am I wasting my time?

[Yada Yada]

Much of QF's domestic fleet is similarly aged to DJ's. All the 737-800's (38 aircraft) have all arrived in the last 5 years. These aircraft form the basis of the QF fleet competing with DJ on the domestic routes. Similarly the A330-200s currently used by QF domestic are reasonably new.

QF's 767's and 737-400s are significantly older than the 737NG fleets of both QF and DJ. But given QF's long experience with these aircraft I don't see that their maintenance is going to make them any more or less likely to be disruptive to airline schedules.

As I predominantly fly SYD-MEL, I'm usually on the old 767 aircraft. In the past 2 years I have experienced delays and cancellations because of problems with these old birds, yet never had a problem with DJ due to equipment failure.

 

[JohnK]

At a lot of places you would be out of a job. Company policy rules and refusal to travel or comply as part of your job means bye bye.

Yes I realise that is the case and if it means losing the job then so be it. I am prepared for that circumstance. There are other jobs, there are other companies. I wouldn't fly Virgin or Jetstar with money out of pocket, and as I can't see any valid reason, I certainly won't be flying with them with money out of someone else's pocket.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Yes I realise that is the case and if it means losing the job then so be it. I am prepared for that circumstance. There are other jobs, there are other companies. I wouldn't fly Virgin or Jetstar with money out of pocket, and as I can't see any valid reason, I certainly won't be flying with them with money out of someone else's pocket.

So what happens in a few years time when all domestic except main cities is DJ or JQ?

 

[serfty]

So what happens in a few years time when all domestic except main cities is DJ or QF?

Stick to main cities I guess... :-|

Oz is SO passe for me now anyway....

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

oops I meant DJ or JQ.

 

[jakeseven7]

Regarding DJ having the youngest fleet, those with an aviation background and/or contacts in the company know that this is a very big problem for them right now. It is easy to start an airline with new planes as their mantenance requirements are low, but as the cycles build up they become quite expensive and DJ are starting to feel the pain. One of the main reasons for DJ's sudden cancellation/re-routing policy is that they don't have the engineering capacity to keep their aircraft in the air, so they are always "robbing Peter to pay Paul". This is especially true with Pacific Blue. These comments come from people within the company that I know very well and trust.

Interesting and not entirely unpredictable... JQ will face the same problem as DJ in a few years but they have QF's experience and support I guess.

Is Pacific Blue just clocking up the cycles domestically flying for DJ? Because they barely fly anywhere with any frequency now..

I personally am not a fan of DJ or QF's 73H's - give me an older but more comfortable 767 anyday.

 

[Commuter]

I personally am not a fan of DJ or QF's 73H's - give me an older but more comfortable 767 anyday.

Personally, I'd rather fly Jetstar A320 than DJ's or QF's 737 NGs. 767 doesn't service the routes that I frequently fly, unfortunately. The problem is, Jetstar's schedule never matches mine, so I have only ever got to fly with them once. (Saying that, I could do without the orange overload and pizza ads.)

... and have since limited my DJ flights to a "DJ or the Greyhound" policy.

I had some very poor 'guest service' experience and staff training issues with DJ. Since then, I have limited my DJ flights to a "DJ only if more than 50% off QF fare" policy. I find that while QF services can be delivered by very grumpy people, at least they don't tend to tell you utter nonsense.

 

[jakeseven7]

Personally, I'd rather fly Jetstar A320 than DJ's or QF's 737 NGs. 767 doesn't service the routes that I frequently fly, unfortunately. The problem is, Jetstar's schedule never matches mine, so I have only ever got to fly with them once. (Saying that, I could do without the orange overload and pizza ads.)

... and have since limited my DJ flights to a "DJ or the Greyhound" policy.

I had some very poor 'guest service' experience and staff training issues with DJ. Since then, I have limited my DJ flights to a "DJ only if more than 50% off QF fare" policy. I find that while QF services can be delivered by very grumpy people, at least they don't tend to tell you utter nonsense.

I will always prefer a QF bird to a DJ/JQ craft just because of the IFE. but stripping it all back, I like the JQ A320s and prefer them to DJ's 73H. Alot of people harp on about how DJ supposedly has more leg room than JQ but it is statistically insignifcant to me, I couldn't even tell.

My best pick for domestic, is the A330 or the 767. A330 seems to have oodles more leg room in Y and both have a better chance of getting aisle or window due to config.

 

[Commuter]

I will always prefer a QF bird to a DJ/JQ craft just because of the IFE. but stripping it all back, I like the JQ A320s and prefer them to DJ's 73H. Alot of people harp on about how DJ supposedly has more leg room than JQ but it is statistically insignifcant to me, I couldn't even tell.

Ah! When I fly on QF 737s, I try to get 4C or 4D, and often get it, so the leg room issues aren't really too relevant to me (besides I'm not tall, so it's fundamentally not a huge issue, although it's always nice to have some extra leg room). I find that A320s are quieter than 737s in general (also for some reason, I find 737-700s noisier than other 737s - whether that is my imagination or not, I am not sure yet). I also like A320s for sentimental reasons

IFE doesn't bother me because I normally use the flight to catch up on my sleep (I'm chronically sleep deprived because of commitments). I normally sleep throughout my flights except for when they feed me (but QF pretzel combos aren't worth waking up for).

On a somewhat different matter, I noticed some improvements in QF domestic economy class 'dinners' lately. The regular dinners on the routes I frequent used to be plain pasta with a bit of tomato sauce. Now they're serving a bit nicer things with vegetables. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[acampbel]

Just to get things back on topic .... following on from my Virgin return for next week's business trip to Brisbane, I have just bought tickets to the Gold Coast for next school hols. That's right - I have spent my own money on Virgin tickets.

The flights are actually returns to Brisbane as the price and availability were better, but as we are picking up a hire care for the week it makes little difference to OOL. The big difference was that flying Qantas would have been both more expensive and less convenient, which no amount of self-delusional elitism could overcome.

I suppose I should now join the kids up in Velocity, especially as it is infinity cheaper than joining the QFF!

 

[JohnK]

So what happens in a few years time when all domestic except main cities is DJ or JQ?

No more domestic status runs. I will cross that bridge when/if we get to it. If you are really forcing me to make a choice then I would have to settle for DJ out of those two!

There are also other options like trains, buses, cars etc. Assess each situation as it happens.

 

[bravoecho1]

bravoecho1 - how long ago did this happen? I have never seen anything like this happen myself, but have observed that the sense of humour in cabin announcements has been toned down to zero in the past year.

Flight was February last year

I'm guessing that the management at Virgin Blue was well prepared for the maintenance requirements of their fleet as it ages and had it planned into their budget forecasts. Their on-time performance proves that any cancellations or delays are minimal.

That's the funny thing - they weren't planning for it. One of the main problems with the company is how short sighted they are. The fuel hedge book is another example (and I know two senior personnel who pushed this from the start).
If you speak to a number of DJ staff across many different divisions, they will all tell you that when DJ implements something, they don't test it first or they roll it out without considering certain consequences. Unfortunately because this is a public forum I can't go into specifics, however I have heard first hand of a number of cases and frankly they either left me shaking my head or scared me to death.

 

[bravoecho1]

Just to get things back on topic .... following on from my Virgin return for next week's business trip to Brisbane, I have just bought tickets to the Gold Coast for next school hols. That's right - I have spent my own money on Virgin tickets.

The flights are actually returns to Brisbane as the price and availability were better, but as we are picking up a hire care for the week it makes little difference to OOL. The big difference was that flying Qantas would have been both more expensive and less convenient, which no amount of self-delusional elitism could overcome.

acampbel,

as a Gold Coast resident, the QF schedule out of OOL is a bone of contention. Luckily living on the northern end it takes me 50 min to OOL and 65 min to BNE so I vote for BNE with its better selection.

 

[Yada Yada]

That's the funny thing - they weren't planning for it. One of the main problems with the company is how short sighted they are. The fuel hedge book is another example (and I know two senior personnel who pushed this from the start).

The former Virgin Group management wanted to put fuel hedging in place but they were thwarted by Chris Corrigan when he took control. The ownership changes at the airline over the past two years have not helped, but to their credit they are still profitable and growing. FWIW, Qantas are in no better position right now even though they hedged, and due to the age of their aircraft and delays on new equipment won't see an improvement for some time.

If you speak to a number of DJ staff across many different divisions, they will all tell you that when DJ implements something, they don't test it first or they roll it out without considering certain consequences. Unfortunately because this is a public forum I can't go into specifics, however I have heard first hand of a number of cases and frankly they either left me shaking my head or scared me to death.

I guess you know more than I do, but I wonder if some of this is simply scuttlebut? Perhaps CrazyDave98 can offer a few comments?

 

[acampbel]

acampbel,

as a Gold Coast resident, the QF schedule out of OOL is a bone of contention. Luckily living on the northern end it takes me 50 min to OOL and 65 min to BNE so I vote for BNE with its better selection.

I wasn't too surprised about the better choice and value from Brisbane, instead I restricted my jaw-dropping to the brief moment where I flirted with Jetstar. "What!!??!! - You want me to pay $300 more to fly with Australia's Best & Less Airline??!!??"

Fine. I'll just put Jetstar into the last resort bucket, along with buses and hitch-hiking.


Cheers,

AC


.

 

[crazydave98]

I'm sorry bravoecho1, but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about on this topic.

Regarding DJ having the youngest fleet, those with an aviation background and/or contacts in the company know that this is a very big problem for them right now. It is easy to start an airline with new planes as their mantenance requirements are low, but as the cycles build up they become quite expensive and DJ are starting to feel the pain. One of the main reasons for DJ's sudden cancellation/re-routing policy is that they don't have the engineering capacity to keep their aircraft in the air, so they are always "robbing Peter to pay Paul". This is especially true with Pacific Blue. These comments come from people within the company that I know very well and trust.

Firstly, your comment about it being easy to start up an airline with new aircraft. Virgin Blue was started with very second hand, older B737-300/400s "borrowed" from Virgin Express. We only traded up to the NGs when they became very affordable after 9/11 (and incidentally Qantas procured a swag of NGs American had on order for much the same reason).

Second, your imaginary "very big problem" about maintaince costs from what are probably equally imaginary contacts that you know and trust. The 737-800 is a much lower cost aircraft to maintain than the classics (300/400) or the equivalent B767 and even in 10 years they will be lower cost.

Thirdly, it's just utter rubbish to claim we don't have the engineering capacity to keep the aircraft in the air. Look at the DOTARS statistics - we have lower cancellation rates than QF or JQ. You must be sniffing Avtur if you think we have some sudden cancellation/re-routing policy. For on time performance we have beaten Qantas every month for 18 months straight now (see attached data from DOTARS) - partly because we have more reliable aircraft.

If you speak to a number of DJ staff across many different divisions, they will all tell you that when DJ implements something, they don't test it first or they roll it out without considering certain consequences. Unfortunately because this is a public forum I can't go into specifics, however I have heard first hand of a number of cases and frankly they either left me shaking my head or scared me to death.

Wrong again. I personally commissioned market research on what became Velocity and we tested the hell out of it - it even scored a mention on this forum. Similarly The Lounge product offering, name and design were tested extensively and I would be very suprised if there weren't members here who particpated in that too. Let's see you back up your assertions - give us the "specifics" but leave out the names to protect your contacts. What's a few more wild allegations to add to your tally?

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[drron]

Nope, for many reasons, alot already touched upon in previous posts.

Look, regardless of what may be the truth at this point in time, some people still have the opinion that Vermin is the poor mans airline and the media does a good job of reinforcing this (RE the fuss made over Keith Urbans parents flying budget airline DJ to the wedding - isn't that bizarre that a multi millionares parents are forced to fly Virgin was the angle they took)

When we moved to best fare of the day for 18 months (and people percieved this to mean we would all be forced to fly DJ most of the time - which in actual fact was untrue thank god) there were alot of people pissed off and irritated that they didnt get the points, status and comfort of qf club and the percieved higher service of QF. Plus as I mentioned before, alot of people still think of Vermin as a budget airline, and for some business people it is a bit of an ego knock having to fly them.

Well Keith Urbans parents may have flown out of the sunshine coast and our choice is DJ or JQ.Now if anyone wants to tell me that JQ is more upmarket than DJ I will be quite happy to arrange their compulsory admission to the nearest psychiatric facility.Out of the sunshine coast JQ is notorious for observing departure times that have no relationship to those advertised.

 

[mbeder]

I'm a long time QF supporter and QC member, but took up the NAB Virgin offer when it came out. I figured that the worst scenario would be a couple of free flights and then ditch the free (for a year) Visa card after 12 months. After 3 months of point collecting, boosted by opening an NAB day-to-day account and using the Visa for a few large business expenses, I have recently managed to book 2 return DJ flights to the Gold Coast for my wife and daughter - at a date/time that suited us. Of course there were still taxes to pay, but this would hae been the case with any airline. Booking during school holidays to a popular destination would not have been possible using QFF points. So, from now on, while I will always try QF first, I have a decent (point-earning) alternative in DJ - something we haven't had since the Ansett days.

 

[bravoecho1]

I'm sorry bravoecho1, but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about on this topic.

Dave,

first up, no need to be sorry. I have nothing against DJ. Many friends and family have and still do work for/with them. Thanks to DJ we have increased competition and cheaper fares. I am not a QF apologist and am proud to say that I fly with the airline which provides (a) the best service (b) best value for money. (Bring back Ansett !!)

For you to come along and state that I have no idea what I am talking about is both presumptuous and offensive. Without knowing where I am getting the information from and who I am referring to, you can hardly discredit my comments.

Firstly, your comment about it being easy to start up an airline with new aircraft. Virgin Blue was started with very second hand, older B737-300/400s "borrowed" from Virgin Express.

It is easy to start an airline, as we have seen with OzJet, Compass etc. Any 19 year old can do it http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1308411

Its keeping the airline running at a profitable level whilst adhering to the regulatory safety standards is where airlines come undone. As we have seen in the past, DJ has been under the pump financially.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/Virgin-Blue-What-about-Qantas/2005/01/26/1106415664655.html

Let me be very clear on this point. I DO NOT want DJ to go under. If they do, friends and family who currently work there will lose their jobs.

Second, your imaginary "very big problem" about maintaince costs from what are probably equally imaginary contacts that you know and trust. The 737-800 is a much lower cost aircraft to maintain than the classics (300/400) or the equivalent B767 and even in 10 years they will be lower cost.

You can operate the cheapest aircraft in the world, however when your engineering budget is not adequate enough to keep the birds in the air thats when problems begin. Though in DJ's defence the figures do look like they will improve in the next 2-4 years as long as the fuel hedge, which was recently introduced, doesn't cost them the earth to put in place.

Thirdly, it's just utter rubbish to claim we don't have the engineering capacity to keep the aircraft in the air. Look at the DOTARS statistics - we have lower cancellation rates than QF or JQ. You must be sniffing Avtur if you think we have some sudden cancellation/re-routing policy. For on time performance we have beaten Qantas every month for 18 months straight now (see attached data from DOTARS) - partly because we have more reliable aircraft.

Firstly, Jet A-1 is getting to expensive to sniff (going back to glue ). Now that we have confirmed you can recite statistics, anyone in the airline industry knows that these figures can be adjusted to a certain degree, including a trick that is very well known to aircrew, INCLUDING those in DJ, of pulling the park break circuit breaker to adjust your "blocks off" time.

The main issue I was addressing is not the on time performance but when a customer who buys a ticket from Sydney to Christchurch gets a phone call a week before their flight and gets routed Sydney-Brisbane-Christchurch with an arrival time of over 6 hours later. This apparently happens on a regular basis. I have heard this first hand from both a member of scheduling as well as the person who controls the calls to the customers advising of their change. He/she has queried this a number of times and has been told it is because of the engineering backlog. This has also been confirmed to me personally by a number of LAME's and their superiors that I know.

Wrong again. I personally commissioned market research on what became Velocity and we tested the hell out of it - it even scored a mention on this forum. Similarly The Lounge product offering, name and design were tested extensively and I would be very suprised if there weren't members here who particpated in that too.

What I was referring to was in house. Its all well and good to conduct as many market research reports as you like, HOWEVER when the the product is rolled out and a large portion of your staff (including a lot of the call centre - this is from two seperate team leaders) are not trained on the product, it does not lend itself to good service when they can't answer customer questions. Referring to specifics, examples of this would include the Velocity program and Web check-in facility.

Let's see you back up your assertions - give us the "specifics" but leave out the names to protect your contacts. What's a few more wild allegations to add to your tally?

When I look at an airline, I am not too concerned about the "bells and whistles". Whats concerns me is the line training for aircrew and maintenance of the aircraft. Referring to specifics, when an airline can take a 24 year old with 800 hours in a C172 mustering cattle, get him to pay for his 737 conversion and then put him on line in the right seat, my concerns do get raised.

On a final note, I would like to say that your personal attack is not in keeping with the spirit of this board. If I got personal like your post and discredited your comments, I could make the assumption that the person involved in setting up the Velocity program and airline lounge wouldn't know a great deal about scheduling, line maintenance and aircrew standards, but I won't .

 

[Yada Yada]

It is easy to start an airline, as we have seen with OzJet, Compass etc. Any 19 year old can do it

Perhaps so, but Virgin Blue has been operating for over 5 years now, has a fleet of 50+ jets and a network that far outstrips anything Compass or OzJet ever managed to do.

Its keeping the airline running at a profitable level whilst adhering to the regulatory safety standards is where airlines come undone. As we have seen in the past, DJ has been under the pump financially.

From my reading of the news in recent months, QF is the one under the pumpt, not DJ. And passenger numbers are down.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Busin...head-for-Qantas/2006/07/06/1152158274559.html

...anyone in the airline industry knows that these figures can be adjusted to a certain degree, including a trick that is very well known to aircrew, INCLUDING those in DJ, of pulling the park break circuit breaker to adjust your "blocks off" time.

Are you sure? It would require the airline to instruct all their pilots to do this in order to cheat. My personal experience is that DJ is on-time more often than QF.
http://www.frequentflyer.com.au/com...f-virgin-check-in-stuff-6484-2.html#post87488

What I was referring to was in house. Its all well and good to conduct as many market research reports as you like, HOWEVER when the the product is rolled out and a large portion of your staff (including a lot of the call centre - this is from two seperate team leaders) are not trained on the product, it does not lend itself to good service when they can't answer customer questions. Referring to specifics, examples of this would include the Velocity program and Web check-in facility.

I have never experienced this with DJ. Many posts on this forum attest to the fact that lack of knowledge about product and procedure at Qantas is widespread. Although to be fair they have a bigger and more complex product to deal with.

When I look at an airline, I am not too concerned about the "bells and whistles". Whats concerns me is the line training for aircrew and maintenance of the aircraft. Referring to specifics, when an airline can take a 24 year old with 800 hours in a C172 mustering cattle, get him to pay for his 737 conversion and then put him on line in the right seat, my concerns do get raised.

A good mate of mine did the same thing from age 19 - paid for his own pilot lessons in a small Cessna, managed to get a few different jobs flying small (non-commercial) aircraft, moved on to a position with Ord Air Charter in north-west WA, and eventually got a job back in Sydney with Qantas working on the 767's.