An invitation from Lesley Grant

Status
Not open for further replies.
In the end of the day MASA had nothing to do with frequent flying. It doesn't make any sense to me that people who earn points by simply paying their taxes can use them to earn status at a fraction of the real cost. How many airlines in the world offer this option to their members?
What QF did was simply "selling" status cheap. They didn't make much profit and many QFF members became unhappy by the constant devaluation of their hard earned status.
It would make more sense to simply sell points like the American airlines do, at least it would help their cash balance.
 
Received my invite, I'll have to decline as at that moment I'll be winging my way to Heathrow, I would liked to have gone, maybe next time.
 
In the end of the day MASA had nothing to do with frequent flying. It doesn't make any sense to me that people who earn points by simply paying their taxes can use them to earn status at a fraction of the real cost. How many airlines in the world offer this option to their members?
What QF did was simply "selling" status cheap. They didn't make much profit and many QFF members became unhappy by the constant devaluation of their hard earned status.
It would make more sense to simply sell points like the American airlines do, at least it would help their cash balance.

Well thank god those pesky MASA tax-paying-status-buyers are gone.

Guess QF won't be devaluing our hard earned status anymore eh ;)
 
Last edited:
Well thank god those pesky MASA tax-paying-status-buyers are gone.

Guess QF won't be devaluing our hard earned status anymore eh ;)

No one knows what the future holds buy my view is that QF should forget about MASA (I'm still waiting to hear which other airlines offer this) and focus on it's loyal customers who what to fly QF but can't do that either because the lack of international routes or because the costs are unreasonable (especially the taxes).
 
No one knows what the future holds buy my view is that QF should forget about MASA (I'm still waiting to hear which other airlines offer this) and focus on it's loyal customers who what to fly QF but can't do that either because the lack of international routes or because the costs are unreasonable (especially the taxes).

I agree with all of that.

My point was simply that the MASA argument is/was a red herring.

It wasn't the problem it was made out to be, and isn't a show-stopper or a problem-solver.

But it was about frequent flying.

The QFF program however is not about flying at all. It's about frequent spending and that's why it makes QF so much money.

Qantas Loyalty is a misnomer and would be better if they spent their time on the issues that you correctly identified.
 
Last edited:
I agree with all of that.

My point was simply that the MASA argument is/was a red herring.

It wasn't the problem it was made out to be, and isn't a show-stopper or a problem-solver.

But it was about frequent flying.

The QFF program however is not about flying at all. It's about frequent spending and that's why it make QF so much money.

Qantas Loyalty is a misnomer and would be better if they spent their time on the issues that you correctly identified.

MASA is a great way to move people from spending only revenue to spending + flying revenue. But a xASA seat did actually cost QFF a fair bit. It's not so much about revenue QF would never have otherwise had as it is about it costing QFF for the seat where it could have been loaded into award inventory for a partner airline or a low/non status flyer to utilise which would have either cost QFF next to nix or generated SOME new revenue as opposed to none/internal accounting when QFF points are used.

The best customers to Qantas are the high cc points generating members. They cost QF nothing it's almost pure cream to the bottom line for QFF. The points these guys generate are "good points" as there's nil cost associated.
Whereas someone spending $100K/year on flights is not as important as there is a hard (and high) cost to provide the service. The points these guys make from flying are "bad points" because of the cost.

The people invited to this event generated enough points into QFF for an invite. It's nothing to do with status or flying... because Qantas is a marketing program. Not an airline and not a loyalty scheme.
 
MASAs acted a bit different to that though - and this is where I think QF totally misunderstood/misunderstands their FF demographic.

Ok here goes.....

1/ Conventional QF wisdom assumes that those regularly redeeming MASAs (a redemption that only produces a "marginal" profit margin for QF) would, in their absence, redeem those same points for redemptions which carried a higher "margin" for QF. eg. Toasters or higher-priced ASA awards.

2/ QF also takes the view that it was a cheap way for savvy FFs to fly in J for cheap, and that by removing this "cheap" option, said FF would now actually fork out hard currency to fly in J.

3/ The third aspect of QF's thought process was the issue of people using MASAs to attain/retain status cheaply. The thought is that these people were taking up revenue seats at low cost, and also that by obtaining status cheaply, these people were obtaining benefits when they fly (which costs QF), without having invested the necessary amount in the first place.

Now let's deal with the facts.....

Very few people took "advantage" of MASAs.

Most QFF members redeem their points on poor value (ie. High-profit-margin for QF) items such as toasters, domestic upgrades, JQ Y redemptions etc etc.

By removing MASA availability from the website,QF ensured no-one accidentally stumbled across them.

To access them required not only "knowledge", but also "time and effort".

Let's not forget that MASAs were more expensive in $$ (thus compensating QF for the points/SC earn).

And of course unless you were status-running, then you weren't actually getting the max value from them.

Let's now address the arguments in turn:

1/ This is somewhat axiomatic.... If the ability to redeem MASAs is taken away, of course those points will be redeemed elsewhere. It is however, fair to say that most MASA users are smart enough to redeem on decent value things (eg.. Premium international redemptions and upgrades), as opposed to toasters, and almost certainly NOT more expensive ASAs.

2/ Firstly, most FFs who like to fly in J and do so at company expense (or to whom money is no object), probably couldn't be coughd with fapping around with MASAs in the first place. In other words, would MASA users now suddenly start paying cold hard cash to sit in J on the same flight that otherwise would have been a MASA? The answer is no.
The only exception would be some members here who earn generous points by flying in J on the company dime, and then use MASAs to inflate status. And they are not going to suddenly start paying $$ to fly TSV-BNE-DRW and back for the day.... They are going to stay home and read my pearls of wisdom instead.

3/ This issue has two parts. First, do MASA runners cost QF yield revenue? Only in Excel is the answer "yes". Firstly, these pax are taking excess seats, and filling a plane that YM decided wasn't going to fill with full J fare paying pax. How do I know this? That's easy...... There had to have been a U seat available. If YM thought the whole J cabin could be sold for full fare, they would not release U seats on that sector. Secondly, by taking the U seat, when the next J pax comes along, he has to pay a higher fare because there is one less seat available in the cabin (yes, I know I'm simplifying the process). Thirdly, the FF is spending points and $$ that they otherwise would not have spent (resulting in QF making a profit, albeit "marginal").

The second part is the question about undeserving peeps availing themselves of the Taittinger without actually having spent $40,000 buying retail First Class Fares.

QF's best status runner is the one who spends money they otherwise wouldn't spend, taking flights they otherwise wouldn't fly, to earn status that they otherwise wouldn't have, only to then stop flying as they've now run out of points/$$/time. Awesome for QF, as aside from the cost of the shiny card and a couple of coasters, this fake-FF isn't taking advantage of any amenities/benefits which cost QF dollars. And if they don't continue flying, they don't retain their status.

And if they do continue flying and get addicted to the game, then they continue to donate $$ to QFF for the sake of it.


So in summary....

1/ Those redeeming MASAs are NOT simply going to redeem a more profitable class of ASA.

2/ Those redeeming MASAs are NOT simply going to fly those same flights but this time pay cash to fly in J.

3/ Those redeeming MASAs solely for status are actually donating more $$ to QF than QF ever would have extracted from them.

In fairness to our friends at Qantas Loyalty - there really is no way to show this on the pivot-table. On paper, the above erroneous assumptions make sense. It takes a different kind of thinking to understand the dynamic in action.

If Qantas Loyalty had senior managers who understood that their role was to actually generate loyalty and get bums on seats across the Group - then they would both understand this, and be able to communicate that message across the Executive group.

But you're not going to get that culture from a CEO who still thinks solely as a Yield Analyst. No matter how smart the mathematician - you still need other skills to actually understand your customers. And "loyalty" is a different skill set to "Yield".




That said - we lived before MASAs, and will continue to do so in their absence. It's not a show-stopper for me.

I disagree (not completely) You have got by far the most important point at number 3. The most important point is that MASA needed a classic award to be available to work. People using MASA were only taking a classic award, and they were paying more for the privilege of taking a classic award.

In the end of the day MASA had nothing to do with frequent flying. It doesn't make any sense to me that people who earn points by simply paying their taxes can use them to earn status at a fraction of the real cost. How many airlines in the world offer this option to their members?
What QF did was simply "selling" status cheap. They didn't make much profit and many QFF members became unhappy by the constant devaluation of their hard earned status.
It would make more sense to simply sell points like the American airlines do, at least it would help their cash balance.

You have missed the most important point. Status is irrelevant for someone getting masses of points by paying their tax. Without MASA they will now just but that Classic award in the premium cabin that must have been available for them to get the MASA. They get the status benefits, they get the lounge access, they fly in the premium cabin. Just now Qantas gets less money. I don't see Qantas killing off classic awards in premium cabins. To repeat A classic award MUST have been available to get a MASA. People using MASA only took classic awards. They did not take revenue seats.

As already mentioned, removing MASA sure as [excrement] didn't stop Qantas devaluing the program on 1 July 2014.
 
Damn, both me and Mrs Dalek got invites to CBR. I will be in San Francisco and she isn't interested.
 
...
To repeat A classic award MUST have been available to get a MASA. People using MASA only took classic awards. They did not take revenue seats.
...

Finally some sanity. This is the key point. QF actually made more revenue on a classic seat sold as a mASA.

Personally, while I temporarily still have QF points (both QF and the bank's recent actions are pushing me elsewhere) I will still be taking up those classic seats, however they will cost me less and make QF less revenue.
 
You have missed the most important point. Status is irrelevant for someone getting masses of points by paying their tax. Without MASA they will now just but that Classic award in the premium cabin that must have been available for them to get the MASA. They get the status benefits, they get the lounge access, they fly in the premium cabin. Just now Qantas gets less money. I don't see Qantas killing off classic awards in premium cabins. To repeat A classic award MUST have been available to get a MASA. People using MASA only took classic awards. They did not take revenue seats.

Status is irrelevant for people who always fly J/F but there were many that used MASA to get/retain status while the majority of their flights were in paid Y. Even if someone have many QF points they may not want to use them every time they fly. Now they will have to buy more expensive tickets or fly more with QF/OW because they won't be able to retain status using classic awards. I suppose that was the reason many were upset when MASA was cancelled.
 
Status is irrelevant for people who always fly J/F but there were many that used MASA to get/retain status while the majority of their flights were in paid Y. Even if someone have many QF points they may not want to use them every time they fly. Now they will have to buy more expensive tickets or fly more with QF/OW because they won't be able to retain status using classic awards. I suppose that was the reason many were upset when MASA was cancelled.

Or forget status and take their business elsewhere. Nobody "has" to buy more expensive tickets at all. This is QF's problem - nobody is buying the more expensive tickets when competitors have a better product for less money.

I fly Y domestically as frankly domestic J apart from trans-con is an outrageous waste of money (or points for that matter).
 
Or forget status and take their business elsewhere. Nobody "has" to buy more expensive tickets at all. This is QF's problem - nobody is buying the more expensive tickets when competitors have a better product for less money.

What MASA did was offering "cheap" status to the very few who knew about it. It just happens that many are members of AFF ;)
The solution however is improving the product and introducing more routes to give enough incentive for people who are willing to pay a bit more to fly QF.
QF should let people earn their status by flying more on a great product instead of handing WP cards like candy and keep devaluating the programme.

I fly Y domestically as frankly domestic J apart from trans-con is an outrageous waste of money (or points for that matter).

Agree 100%.
 
Read our AFF credit card guides and start earning more points now.

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

^^^^ exactly!!

Boomy is right in the description of what people used MASA for, but the conclusion is a logical fallacy.

It's only true if that individual still wants to pursue "inflated" status at any cost (inflated by means of the assumption that their usual flying patterns won't result in the desired status level they seek).

Instead - the golden handcuffs have been removed and the flyer is forced to make flying decisions free of the status addiction game.

That clearly will result in many cases of flyers directing at least some revenue to other airlines and other programs.

Like I said - I don't consider the removal of MASAs to be a show-stopper. But it has changed my spend decisions and those of many around here.

I also don't 100% agree with Trippin's conclusion. It's only valid if you assume the flight is at 100% loading. Otherwise there is no opportunity cost by the FF taking the MASA.
 
I always assumed I was a poor customer for Qantas and that my invitation to meet Leslie was therefore inappropriate. Nearly all of my 3m points pa were from cc spending. My wife and I are WPs as a direct consequence of changing our prior pattern of booking classic awards only, to booking many of our international F flights as MASAs. Because of our status and "loyalty", we also flew Qantas exclusively when paying for flights. Paid flights were largely domestic economy but also one return (2 pax) Europe J flight per year (paid for by work).
The demise of MASA and our forthcoming reduction in status has resulted in a number of future bookings going to Singapore Airlines. I suspect this is not a big loss for Qantas, but I am not really sure how much we were worth to them. How much did qantas earn from my 3 m points per year ( and all those taxes I paid)?
Is my invitation revoked now?
 
QFF earned a gazillion from your CC points.

They then made a profit (margin) when you redeemed them for flights.

QF got paid for the flight by QFF.

QFF paid QF less than what they charged your bank for the same points. Voila - profit.

Your extra flights on QF as a result of you wanting to be loyal due to your ASA-induced status were wins for QF.

You choosing BFOD on cash flights is QF's loss, but under the current leadership of Qantas Loyalty - they don't see it that way.

We've gone a little OT with the detailed MASAs discussion, but it is an illustration of what can motivate /demotivate loyalty.

Your example is a really good one.

You're exactly the kind of person who could make a good contribution to these get togethers.
 
QFF earned a gazillion from your CC points.

They then made a profit (margin) when you redeemed them for flights.

QF got paid for the flight by QFF.

QFF paid QF less than what they charged your bank for the same points. Voila - profit.

Your extra flights on QF as a result of you wanting to be loyal due to your ASA-induced status were wins for QF.

You choosing BFOD on cash flights is QF's loss, but under the current leadership of Qantas Loyalty - they don't see it that way.

We've gone a little OT with the detailed MASAs discussion, but it is an illustration of what can motivate /demotivate loyalty.

Your example is a really good one.

You're exactly the kind of person who could make a good contribution to these get togethers.

If MASA was such a cash cow and also encouraged loyalty then why QF cancelled it and why no other airline is introducing something similar to it's members?
These are genuine questions, I'm not trying to be confronting ;)
 
You have missed the most important point. Status is irrelevant for someone getting masses of points by paying their tax. Without MASA they will now just but that Classic award in the premium cabin that must have been available for them to get the MASA. They get the status benefits, they get the lounge access, they fly in the premium cabin. Just now Qantas gets less money. I don't see Qantas killing off classic awards in premium cabins. To repeat A classic award MUST have been available to get a MASA. People using MASA only took classic awards. They did not take revenue seats.

What you're saying is half true. MASAs did take away revenue seats - 3 scenarios:
1) Customer redeems for JASA whereas they would have likely otherwise either purchased cash economy ticket (which has then cost QF rev by not receiving any cash and by taking a U seat out of inventory for someone else to burn points on).

2) Partner redemptions suffer. If QFF members redeem for seats on QF its one less seat that an AA, BA, CX etc passenger can redeem on. QF receives cash from the partner airline for this seat (ie: new revenue) whereas its internal accounting (ie: old money). In this sense makes more financial sense to have the redemption made by someone under another program who may ALSO potentially connect onto a revenue ticket if to/from Aus.

3) Pure SC chasing on flight that otherwise would never be taken - yes this depends on the flight/loads but it does take away revenue if the cabin is full (and QF could have burned another members points for an upgrade). The only situation this helps QF is if there was no offer for that same seat by a partner airline/other FF member and it was going to be empty anyway - which is RARE on intl flights. The only way QFF would be benefiting here is from the small% of savvy frequent flyers who had the ability to earn points and essentially swap them for status credits. Such a small small% in the overall scheme of things.

Now, someone with high CC points earn is most likely NOT crediting direct sweeping to QFF. All the high end cards and private banking cards allow for choice of where points are sent to. If you're doing serious CC points and in the small% that redeem for premium intl cabins then status likely means jack. Why bother with status when you're always in biz/first anyway? There's simply no point.

I would be interested to see stats on how many points banks buy from krisflyer/airpoints etc.. That number is likely growing year on year and would be an accurate reflection of the market share QFF could capture but is failing to and IMO is what QFF success/bonuses should be based upon.
 
Last edited:
If MASA was such a cash cow and also encouraged loyalty then why QF cancelled it and why no other airline is introducing something similar to it's members?
These are genuine questions, I'm not trying to be confronting ;)

Stating the obvious here but they perceived that it wasn't working for them.

Personally I couldn't care less about the demise of the cheap ASA's.
What I would like to know is why QF have deliberately chosen a path that alienates and excludes their QF elites who choose to or need to fly on One World Alliance partners ?
Genuine question, because as far as I can see no other OW Alliance member is similarly penalising it's elite members.
 
Last edited:
QF is money poor, according to some, they made a loss!
If a flyer chooses to book and fly with them, that flyer will earn the most relevant QF FF points and QF SCs.
If a flyer dares to fly with a OW partner, or book EK flights with an EK flight number, the flyer will earn QF FF but no SC.
QF, in my POV, is guarding the $$$ they can get, they dont want to share revenue anymore.
As a QF FF, booking directly with EK F SYD to AKL and then flying with EK, would have some advantages, for booking and flying with EK, but QF does not like this, so they won't give SCs for booking and flying EK without a QF flight code. Cunning and sly, of course.

Not to mention, from 01 Oct, even QF P1/WP flyers booking and flying solely EK, without a QF flight number will not get access to the QF F lounge.
Further protecting revenues.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Become an AFF member!

Join Australian Frequent Flyer (AFF) for free and unlock insider tips, exclusive deals, and global meetups with 65,000+ frequent flyers.

AFF members can also access our Frequent Flyer Training courses, and upgrade to Fast-track your way to expert traveller status and unlock even more exclusive discounts!

AFF forum abbreviations

Wondering about Y, J or any of the other abbreviations used on our forum?

Check out our guide to common AFF acronyms & abbreviations.
Back
Top