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Airlines eye new slots at Haneda (Tokyo)

pauly7

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Japan makes more slots available to Australian airlines at the coveted Haneda.

Assuming VA is still wedded to HKG, QF will probably pounce on them.

Will we see MEL expansion?

Full articles:

 

Alyopsis

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About the Haneda slots, I read an interesting possibility on a blog today- ANA doing Adelaide Haneda. Not likely but interesting idea.

 

Himeno

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About the Haneda slots, I read an interesting possibility on a blog today- ANA doing Adelaide Haneda. Not likely but interesting idea.

That article doesn't seem to understand how these slots work.
The author claims the slots will lapse if not started by end March. That's not the case. These slots become available for use end March and are available to any Australian carrier, once approved by IASC, at any time after that. MILT isn't going to just remove slots from Australian routes if they aren't used, less so with their already having allocated the Japanese slots to JAL and ANA.
The new HND slots have come about due to a rearrangement of Tokyo airspace as a result of the USAF handing back airspace around Yokota Airbase.

I could see JL changing either of their existing flights to HND and restarting BNE-NRT, which they dropped prior to their 2010 bankruptcy restructure.
NH only just started NRT-PER. I don't see them changing that. I could see them opening a MEL or BNE-HND route.
For the Australian carrier slots;
VA isn't likely to be able use them given their fleet size and current cash problems.
JQ won't be interested. Their Japan base is at NRT and HND comes with a premium.
I can see QF taking both day slots and using 1 to open a 2nd SYD-HND, and MEL-HND while opening another new JP route. Maybe PER-NRT or making SYD-CTS year round.
 

Himeno

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IASC is looking to fast track any Australian carrier applications for these HND slots and hopes to award them by the end of October.
They are also halving the submission response times and decision deadlines on any submissions from 10 working days to 5.


Qantas renewed their existing HND slots for 5 years in January (the permission had been due to expire on Dec 19 2019)
 

suze2000

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You know if JAL flew MEL-HND that would really change our lives getting to the UK. I'd prefer that to any Aus carrier getting the slots.
 

Himeno

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You know if JAL flew MEL-HND that would really change our lives getting to the UK. I'd prefer that to any Aus carrier getting the slots.
The current NRT times for JL773/774 would work for HND day slots.
It would give a 2h15 connection between JL774 and JL43, but the connection the other way wouldn't work well. Would need to get BA7 for LHR-HND for a reasonable connection to a HND based JL MEL flight. (of course, if JL opened/changed an AU route for HND, they'd also change the flight number, as they like having 1-2 digit numbers for US flights and HND long haul)
 

moa999

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You know if JAL flew MEL-HND that would really change our lives getting to the UK. I'd prefer that to any Aus carrier getting the slots.
Two new slots have been given to the Japanese carrier - once each for JAL and ANA, as well as the two to Aus carriers
 

Himeno

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A little bit of history about HND and how/why the slot system works... Some people don't seem to understand the process.

HND used to be the primary Tokyo airport. Due to its proximity to the city and increasing traffic, the air space was becoming congested and the normal airport noise complaints lead to Narita airport being built and the vast majority of long hurl flights were moved to NRT. HND became just domestic flights.

In 2007, HND started allowing limited international flights again, timed for what would become the night slot period, due to NRT being closed.
These flights were limited to "scheduled charter flights " to international destinations within the flight distance of the longest domestic flight (which meant Korea, Hong Kong and parts of China).

HND was the busiest airport in Asia prior to PEK and DXB bumping it from top spot.

A new intentional terminal and 4th runway was opened in 2010, which allowed an extra 30,000 flights/year (82 flights/day) during the international slot night period. The Japanese government allocated these slots out to nations for assignment to their airlines, Japanese airlines would get half of the slots to fly to those allocated nations. JAL can't get a slot meant for Germany and fly to Paris. They have to use that slot to fly to somewhere in Germany.
Due to the timing of the night slots, flight times and time zones, the slots lead to many of the North American and European flights to fail. (eg, a night slot at HND would require a midnight arrival/departure from JFK and midnight arrival at HND). The slot Australia has (that QF and NH use for SYD-HND) was allocated in this round.

In 2013 more HND slots were released, this time day slots, for use after the international terminal expansion opened in 2014. The US spent 3 years negotiating with Japan over this release because DL was making a big fuss about it and demanding enough HND slots to move their entire NRT hub. Australia didn't get any slots in this round.

Last year, the USAF handed back control over some airspace around the Yotoka Airbase, which combined with an expansion to T2 (ANA domestic) and new taxiways allowed for 50 additional day flights to be assigned. The US got most of these (24 flights with the normal 50/50 split to JP carriers). DOT recently finished assigning the 12 US carrier slots. and the remaining 26 slots were assigned by Japan last week.

The new taxiways and the international section of T2 are due to open when the new day slots become available for use. The international terminal is also being renamed to Terminal 3 at the same time. The airspace changes and airport expansion should allow for 271 daily international flights from next year (and almost 700 daily flights for NRT).

Australian and Japan have an open skies treaty, and while this means that Australian and Japanese carriers can fly unlimited flights/pax/cargo between AU and JP, HND is not part of Japanese open skies treaties.
 

jakeseven7

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Any gossip on what QF will do? I'd love to see MEL open up to HND.... (in favour over NRT).
Would they run a NRT and HND service out of MEL together?
 

Himeno

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Any gossip on what QF will do? I'd love to see MEL open up to HND.... (in favour over NRT).
Would they run a NRT and HND service out of MEL together?
QF are likely to ask for at least 1 of the day slots, to make SYD-HND double daily with 787s and remove the 747 (which requires 2 aircraft with the current timing). A double daily to Tokyo would also require 2 aircraft if they didn't park the aircraft and did normal 90-120min turns like Qantas does with almost every other flight to Asia.

JQ won't want any with their Japan hub at NRT. VA is unlikely to be able to run a HND flight.
If QF get the 2nd day slot, MEL is more likely then BNE, assuming they have enough aircraft. They could move their current MEL-NRT to HND, then ask to codeshare to NRT on the JL MEL flight.
 

sbor90

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If QF get the 2nd day slot, MEL is more likely then BNE, assuming they have enough aircraft. They could move their current MEL-NRT to HND, then ask to codeshare to NRT on the JL MEL flight.
Thoughts on the sustainability of SYD-KIX?
 

jaseblenner

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A little bit of history about HND and how/why the slot system works... Some people don't seem to understand the process.

HND used to be the primary Tokyo airport. Due to its proximity to the city and increasing traffic, the air space was becoming congested and the normal airport noise complaints lead to Narita airport being built and the vast majority of long hurl flights were moved to NRT. HND became just domestic flights.

In 2007, HND started allowing limited international flights again, timed for what would become the night slot period, due to NRT being closed.
These flights were limited to "scheduled charter flights " to international destinations within the flight distance of the longest domestic flight (which meant Korea, Hong Kong and parts of China).

HND was the busiest airport in Asia prior to PEK and DXB bumping it from top spot.

A new intentional terminal and 4th runway was opened in 2010, which allowed an extra 30,000 flights/year (82 flights/day) during the international slot night period. The Japanese government allocated these slots out to nations for assignment to their airlines, Japanese airlines would get half of the slots to fly to those allocated nations. JAL can't get a slot meant for Germany and fly to Paris. They have to use that slot to fly to somewhere in Germany.
Due to the timing of the night slots, flight times and time zones, the slots lead to many of the North American and European flights to fail. (eg, a night slot at HND would require a midnight arrival/departure from JFK and midnight arrival at HND). The slot Australia has (that QF and NH use for SYD-HND) was allocated in this round.

In 2013 more HND slots were released, this time day slots, for use after the international terminal expansion opened in 2014. The US spent 3 years negotiating with Japan over this release because DL was making a big fuss about it and demanding enough HND slots to move their entire NRT hub. Australia didn't get any slots in this round.

Last year, the USAF handed back control over some airspace around the Yotoka Airbase, which combined with an expansion to T2 (ANA domestic) and new taxiways allowed for 50 additional day flights to be assigned. The US got most of these (24 flights with the normal 50/50 split to JP carriers). DOT recently finished assigning the 12 US carrier slots. and the remaining 26 slots were assigned by Japan last week.

The new taxiways and the international section of T2 are due to open when the new day slots become available for use. The international terminal is also being renamed to Terminal 3 at the same time. The airspace changes and airport expansion should allow for 271 daily international flights from next year (and almost 700 daily flights for NRT).

Australian and Japan have an open skies treaty, and while this means that Australian and Japanese carriers can fly unlimited flights/pax/cargo between AU and JP, HND is not part of Japanese open skies treaties.
Thankyou very much for the insight!
 

Himeno

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Thoughts on the sustainability of SYD-KIX?
Osaka is the 2nd biggest metro area in Japan after Tokyo. Large business destination and gateway to places such as Kobe, Nara and Kyoto. Also has Universal Studios Japan. I could see a daily SYD-KIX and the JQ CNS-KIX working. Not too sure on anything beyond increasing those to daily from the current 4-5 weekly.
 

Melburnian1

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You know if JAL flew MEL-HND that would really change our lives getting to the UK. I'd prefer that to any Aus carrier getting the slots.
While there's a plethora of 'best airline' awards - TripAdvisor's is probably the most representative of what travellers perceive, and Skytrax the worst, being merely a revenue-generating site that allegedly has airlines pay it for rankings - there's a new 'award' ranking by flight search site Kayak, in which JAL and ANA respectively came in at numbers 1 and 2 in Asia-Pacific:


QF wasn't even in the top 10, which is my perception.

The AFF site is overly fascinated with QF yet (including JQ) only about 25 per cent of international travel ex and to Oz is made on these two carriers in total. Sure, for Australian-originating travellers that figure may be a bit higher, but the majority of us choose other airlines, often on price but sometimes because those who research and experience a variety of airlines know Qantas is poor, particularly compared to a number of Asian airlines.

I've never had rude service on JL, PR or SQ, but unfortunately at times have had this on QF. On the latter, staff also sometimes disappear for hours on end. Too busy gossiping to concern themselves with inconvenient passengers.
 

p--and--t

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I've never had rude service on JL, PR or SQ, but unfortunately at times have had this on QF. On the latter, staff also sometimes disappear for hours on end. Too busy gossiping to concern themselves with inconvenient passengers.
If you are searching out rude service and lazy as they come staff - try the flights I made in the last 36 months on EK in whY or LH in Y+

Edit: Oh and I forgot the BA staff on NBO-LHR in J - appalling.
 
Last edited:

dajop

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- there's a new 'award' ranking by flight search site Kayak, in which JAL and ANA respectively came in at numbers 1 and 2 in Asia-Pacific:
Any airline (i.e. JAL) that persists in offering 8 across on a 787 in economy, with 33" seat pitch deserves to number one IMHO! Airlines that put 10 across on 777 and deploy them on the worlds longest flight with an economy cabin, do not deserve such a ranking! Neither do crack cocaine airlines who put 9 across in 787's and deploy them on the worlds second longest flight route that offers economy seats, even with their massive 32" of legroom:p
 

sbor90

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Any airline (i.e. JAL) that persists in offering 8 across on a 787 in economy, with 33" seat pitch deserves to number one IMHO!
Agree, I've flown both JAL 787-8 and 787-9 economy over the past two weeks and it is very comfortable for Y.

The addition of fairly priced no data limit WiFi, excellent meals and service, great lounges, and good status benefits (OWE boarding before J/OWS in particular) make it a very compelling product.

My only wish would be unrestricted seat selection for status pax on discount economy fares (which don't include seat selection at all) but this is not a huge complaint given I paid a grand total of $850 for SYD-xMEL-NRT and NRT-SYD.

With full service airlines to Japan this cheap, I often wonder why people bother with JQ and the like...
 

TomCC

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Have flown business a number of times either SYD-HND (Qantas) or SIN-HND (through JAL). To be honest and to counter the standard anti-Qantas narrative have always found the SYD-HND (& return) to be a superior service experience 🤷‍♂️ (not that JAL was bad at all).
 

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