Air India B787 crash Ahmedabad

I would like someone with access to The Age to see what Dave Evans (QF32) said over there

Paste the article link into 12ft

Summary:

At this early stage, I’m reluctant to label this accident “human error” but it’s worth observing that at around the time the aircraft started its terminal descent into the ground, the undercarriage was still deployed. Landing gear retraction is the first configuration change after lift-off. As soon as the aircraft is confirmed airborne and with a positive rate of climb the pilots retract the gear. It has no more use and simply creates aerodynamic drag so it is raised into the airframe.

The key question here is – were the flaps retracted after take-off instead of the undercarriage?
 
This guy posted a better quality video than most uploaded and makes a strong case that the RAT was deployed.
Assuming the original files are as recorded, that sound is extraordinary. And it includes another relevant sound, or perhaps lack of sound…we should be hearing a pair of engines at full power. If the RAT is extended, then the entire tone of this event changes, and people will start looking at Boeing again.

As we know though, the RAT only extends for a couple of reasons, one of which is dual engine failure. The likelihood of that is vanishly small, so many commentators are dismissing it and moving towards more likely causes. As Captain Steve says, birds are unlikely, because we don’t see any smoke or flashes of flame, and anyway, they’re huge engines and would be reasonably resilient. Any shutdown would also tend to destabilise the aircraft in yaw, and we don’t see that, or any rudder input.

Fuel contamination. Not likely either. There would have been many other aircraft affected, and it wouldn’t strike both engines at the same instant. Fuel actually comes directly from individual collector tanks, so even though the aircraft was refuelled, most likely, most, if not all, of the fuel in those tanks was from the previous, successful flight.

Flaps. Images in the air definitely show the slats to be extended, and I’m pretty certain that you can make out the break line at the trailing edge. Shots of the wreckage would seem to confirm that. Wrong flap? We’ll come back to that.

So, people come back to what is possibly the most popular explanation. What if the non flying pilot select flap up instead of gear up. The wreckage images seem show flaps at least partially extended, but I suppose they could have been retracted and then reextended. Well, then the event as described in Captain Steve’s YT would play out.

In large part, the idea of a support pilot mistake is based upon the landing gear remaining down. It’s worth noting that the landing gear on the Concorde that crashed in Paris was also down, even though it was selected up. The gear won’t retract if there’s no hydraulics, and probably won’t with a range of electrical issues.

Take off configuration error. This is checked electronically (though from what I hear, not quite as robustly as Airbus), but it is still checked multiple times. The aircraft would not have rotated normally, and most likely would have suffered a tailstike. The rotation numbers (Vspeeds) would have been wrong.

People like the pilot error side because it has lots of form, and seems to fit the video images, although I think it fails given that slats are clearly visible in flight, and the wreckage seems to show extended flap. If the aircraft took off at flap 5, and the flaps were accidentally taken to flap 1, the wreckage would probably look much the same, but going from the 767 numbers, I think it would have flown. I’m sure that’s currently being run in many sims around the world. Historically, when I’ve made (or seen others) a switching error, the immediate reaction is to reverse whatever you’d just done.

But, right now, for me, the sound and its lack is the most compelling item. The apparent lack of the engines at full charge, combined with the unusual whine as made by a RAT. If what that implies is true, then everything else follows on. The gear won’t come up, and the aircraft won’t fly for long.

So, let’s just add a question. If we assume that it isn’t pilot error, then what could possibly cause a SIMULTANEOUS shutdown of both engines? Pretty well every failure that I can think of would have some level of lag between the shutdowns, which means I’d expect to see some sort of yaw/rudder activity, even if only momentary.
 
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Whilst the media were telling us how experienced they were, the Captain apparently had 8,000 hours. That’s very low given his age, and makes me wonder why. The FO on the other hand had 1,000, so not even at the level many airlines would even talk to him. Neither may have any relevance to the outcome, but they’re not high numbers. And, of course, the media may not be able to count, and the numbers could be rubbish.
Maybe it was hours on type rather than total hours?
 
Any software issue here and you be assured the 787 fleet globally will be grounded. It’s going to be interesting to see which way this goes, FAA won’t have the patience anymore.
 
Not sure whether the list of things to be looked for adds any early insight

I think as Lucky points out, this is a precaution.

And a sensible one.

What are the main things that could possibly have happened? Let’s check for those.

It’s possible if a maintenance issue affected this aircraft that the problem was replicated on other aircraft.
 
Do you remember what age you hit 8000hrs
About 38. And even that is a bit old, but remember I was a back seater until I was 24, and then in a relatively low hour part of the military until 29.
I would like someone with access to The Age to see what Dave Evans (QF32) said over there
Dave locked in on the gear retraction, and possible flap/gear selection from support pilot.
Maybe it was hours on type rather than total hours?
Quite possibly, though hours on type normally comes out with the reports.

This is interesting.
India-Inspection-787.webp
 
Commercial airline pilot and YouTuber Captain Steve, who analyzes plane crashes and close calls, gave his theory on the incident which killed 241 people on board.

The London-bound 787 Dreamliner began losing height moments after take-off and crashed in a fireball over a residential area in the Ahmedabad, Gujarat.

Steve said he suspected there had been an exceptionally simple error in the coughpit when the co-pilot was asked to retract the landing gear, with devastating consequences.

“Here’s what I think happened, again folks this is just my opinion. I think the pilot flying said to the co-pilot said ‘gear up’ at the appropriate time,” he said.

“I think the co-pilot grabbed the flap handle and raised the flaps, instead of the gear. If that happened, this explains a lot of why this airplane stopped flying.”

He said the flaps being raised would cause the flight to lose airspeed and altitude quickly, something he thinks the pilot would have struggled to control.

He explained his theory by saying the 787’s composite wings would normally bend during take off as lift forces take it into the air.

But the Air India plane appears to show no such bending, amid widespread speculation the flaps which help lift the plane off had accidentally been retracted.

Source: https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...h/news-story/be5919c8df6eabde14dce8fd13a17a66
 
But the Air India plane appears to show no such bending,
Though in other photos/video I did see bending of the wing. I don't know to what extent they should bend at this stage of the flight.

Remember though that a substantial amount of fuel is carried in the wings. This would mitigate wing bending especially when heavy with fuel when it's at the start of the journey
 
Commercial airline pilot and YouTuber Captain Steve, who analyzes plane crashes and close calls, gave his theory on the incident which killed 241 people on board.

The London-bound 787 Dreamliner began losing height moments after take-off and crashed in a fireball over a residential area in the Ahmedabad, Gujarat.

Steve said he suspected there had been an exceptionally simple error in the coughpit when the co-pilot was asked to retract the landing gear, with devastating consequences.

“Here’s what I think happened, again folks this is just my opinion. I think the pilot flying said to the co-pilot said ‘gear up’ at the appropriate time,” he said.

“I think the co-pilot grabbed the flap handle and raised the flaps, instead of the gear. If that happened, this explains a lot of why this airplane stopped flying.”

He said the flaps being raised would cause the flight to lose airspeed and altitude quickly, something he thinks the pilot would have struggled to control.

He explained his theory by saying the 787’s composite wings would normally bend during take off as lift forces take it into the air.

But the Air India plane appears to show no such bending, amid widespread speculation the flaps which help lift the plane off had accidentally been retracted.

Source: https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...h/news-story/be5919c8df6eabde14dce8fd13a17a66

As seems to be a factor with airline incidents these days a flurry of “influencers” have chimed in with their theories and “conclusions”, based off things like a barely visible phone video taken kms away. Some of which have been posted on this thread, like CW Lemoine, Captain Steve, Swiss001 and a few more, and are picked up by trashy tabloid sites like “News.com.au”.

I have very little time for speculation about what could have been the cause, especially the “accidental flap instead of gear retraction” theory. So called “professionals” should not be posting these videos and they are not doing their profession any justice, nor are they respected to any extent within the industry. Their prime motivation is clicks, influence and status vs actual education and knowledge sharing to improve flight safety.

If you want two channels that are fact based go for Juan Browne - Blancoriro for factual data in the aftermath of an incident without much unqualified speculation, and Petter Hornfledt - Mentour Pilot, who puts out fantastic in depth analysis usually after the final report has been released. What this means is you might have to wait a bit before you get actual facts (data from the recorders should be downloaded within a week or two) but in the meantime the self promoters like “Captain Steeeve” are best ignored.

I should caution as well this is not just the domain of social media, the typical “experts” have popped up in traditional media to spout whatever sensationalist rubbish they can muster to promote themselves. As reliable as the sun coming up was Byron Bailey getting his mug onto TV to go on a rant about “unqualified pilots” without a shred of evidence that occurred.
 
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The airport elevation is just under 200', so it's really about 400 feet above the ground. The speed and altitude are quite reasonable for a normal departure. Worth noting that they've taken off from a mid-field taxiway, leaving only about 1,800 metres of runway. Looks like there's works affecting the taxiway to the full length. That's short but apparently doable.

FR24 are reporting a backtrack and then full length departure

I’d be wondering if all this extra taxxing was taxing and distracting (unfamiliar) and thus the pilots got in a hurry and made mistakes ?
 
If you want two channels that are fact based go for Juan Browne - Blancoriro for factual data in the aftermath of an incident without much unqualified speculation, and Petter Hornfledt - Mentour Pilot, who puts out fantastic in depth analysis usually after the final report has been released. What this means is you might have to wait a bit before you get actual facts (data from the recorders should be downloaded within a week or two) but in the meantime the self promoters like “Captain Steeeve” are best ignored.
Just FYI petter did an "emergency" Livestream podcast with his co host (another airline Captain) mere hours after the crash and basically highlighted all the likely theories whilst trying to say they're not speculating. (Dual engine failure, pilot error). Although they did mention its highly unlikely that it was an incorrect initial flaps setting due to it looking like a regular rotation.
 
I’d be wondering if all this extra taxxing was taxing and distracting (unfamiliar) and thus the pilots got in a hurry and made mistakes ?
Petter (Mentour Pilot) and Ben (Airline Pilot Performance) basically ruled that out. It would've needed multiple swiss cheese failures and the rotation looked normal. They basically said if the settings were incorrect and the coughpit takeoff configuration warning system was somehow disabled the rotation would've looked sluggish and likely had a tail strike.
 
The gear won’t retract if there’s no hydraulics, and probably won’t with a range of electrical issues.

Take off configuration error. This is checked electronically (though from what I hear, not quite as robustly as Airbus), but it is still checked multiple times. The aircraft would not have rotated normally, and most likely would have suffered a tailstike. The rotation numbers (Vspeeds) would have been wrong.
I have been unable to move on from this thought since the first video with the odd sounds as well.

As you say, rotation looks very normal from the videos we have. IF there was a lack of lift, surely there would have been enough time for either pilot to go full TOGA. I have no knowledge of 787 avionics, but if you are in a derated engine mode for takeoff and select TOGA, do you automatically get 100%+ thrust? Or do you get max of a derated mode only, and need further applications/inputs to get everything the engines can give?

Just pondering. Keeping in mind 37c ambient and heavy load, may be a moot point.
 
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Just FYI petter did an "emergency" Livestream podcast with his co host (another airline Captain) mere hours after the crash and basically highlighted all the likely theories whilst trying to say they're not speculating. (Dual engine failure, pilot error). Although they did mention its highly unlikely that it was an incorrect initial flaps setting due to it looking like a regular rotation.

I saw that, it was more of an educational video explaining a lot of fluff that’s been put out in the media. For instance they talked about the layers of procedures and system warnings that prevent a mis-set flap setting for takeoff, rather than some “experts” who saw the phone footage and said “yeah I can’t see any flaps extended so it’s probably pilot error from not setting the flaps or they stupidly retracted flaps instead of gear after takeoff”.

When I meant professionals shouldn’t be speculating that doesn’t mean remaining silent, totally fine to put factual information out. You just have to do it in a responsible manner and there’s some “influencers” and “experts” who aren’t doing that.
 
Also this post on FB with a screenshot from a claimed ex-crew member claiming this particular aircraft was a lemon.

 

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