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AFF - are we our own self-moderating enemy?

JohnK

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@JohnK this is the thing. I don't find the QF service that great. Or the EK service for that matter. But I have tried both quite a few times and I've had countless economy flights and I don't fly Singapore Airlines for the hell of it. :) :p

Basically, it's up to you, whatever floats your boat. And others shouldn't criticise you for it.
But people do criticise these decisions, not just here but in other parts of the forum.

There are valid reasons why people make decisions and each one may not be clearly evident to the person viewing the post and is not as clear cut as simply saying the only reason anyone flies Qantas is for status benefits.

Soon I'll be ready to research December trip. During that time I feel that Qantas could be too expensive so SQ may start to look more attractive. Possibly even JQ.
 

serfty

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And as far as the assertion by Serfty that QF is the worst Y product
You misread - my statement was qualified - obviously you missed that naunce.
I have flown quite a few. QF, EK, 3K, SQ, CX, VA, MH.
... I wrote 'soft product' - i.e. Food, Beverages, service levels (e.g. hot towels in economy). Of the carriers you mention, QF generally provides the worst in economy.
This was in reference to:
[Qantas]are streets ahead of the others with their economy product.
@p--and--t , do you really believe that Qantas Economy service internationally is "streets ahead" of " EK, 3K, SQ, CX, VA, MH"?
 

p--and--t

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[QUOTE="p--and--t , do you really believe that Qantas Economy service internationally is "streets ahead" of " EK, 3K, SQ, CX, VA, MH"?
[/QUOTE]

That wasn't my statement.
 

dajop

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I feel that Qantas could be too expensive so SQ may start to look more attractive. Possibly even JQ.
SQ less expensive than Qantas [sound of falling off my chair]. Very rare at this end. Ever. But I sometimes will pay extra for the better schedule for me on SQ. Presumably more likely to be less expensive ex- Australia.
 

serfty

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p--and--t said:
, do you really believe that Qantas Economy service internationally is "streets ahead" of " EK, 3K, SQ, CX, VA, MH"?
That wasn't my statement.
No, this was:
And as far as the assertion by Serfty that QF is the worst Y product, that is just one of the most outright ludicrous statements going around.
I did not make that "ludicrous" statement and nor would I.

I have flown over 1800 RPT flights on dozens of carrier and QF is certainly not the worst Y product.
 
Last edited:

harvyk

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<snip>My personal opinion is that bucking the trend the way we do when we take responsibility for our own travel plans <snip>
Sort of agree with this.

30 years ago, you'd walk into a travel agent, and they would be able to not only book flights, which all comply with various rules like MCT, but advise you on various requirements such as visa's, insurance, and other things that you really need to know to travel. Furthermore the majority of those TA's had been on the job for many years, it was a career with a future, so they where giving advice with first hand experience.

These days airlines throw up a booking portal and say "go for it". It is up to us to do the research. That's fine for the average AFFer who is constantly planning their next trip(s) away (plus we already know the trusted websites for getting information from), but the average person doesn't do that.

Yes there are TA's still, but they are now competing with internet, plus the TA's who are basically all straight out of uni with no real travel experience of their own.

So yes, whilst there is a degree of one should take responsibility for their travel plans, the whole system is at up to be not at all user friendly.
 

Forg

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^ While it generally works out for me, all you describe is probably entirely related to the cost of flying having come down so dramatically over the last half-century. There's probably not enough "cream" left in the price of airfares to pay knowledgeable people enough to keep them employed in travel agents. And the "fault" (for want of a better word) lies with the consumer demanding price uber alles.
 

burmans

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But people do criticise these decisions, not just here but in other parts of the forum.

There are valid reasons why people make decisions and each one may not be clearly evident to the person viewing the post and is not as clear cut as simply saying the only reason anyone flies Qantas is for status benefits.

Soon I'll be ready to research December trip. During that time I feel that Qantas could be too expensive so SQ may start to look more attractive. Possibly even JQ.
Not sure I agree with your characterisation of dissenting opinions as "criticism".

Sure everyone has personal reasons for their preferences and this may not be evident to the person viewing the post. But if you are going to put stufout there on a public facing forum where others are entitled to hold different opinions, then in my view as a poster then you have some responsibilty for ensuring you provide that context (or alternately when they don't understand because you havent, you cut them some slack for not understanding what you haven't told them).

And disagreeing with you should probably be interpreted as someone elses right to also give their personal opinion rather than a personal attack.
 

JohnK

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And disagreeing with you should probably be interpreted as someone elses right to also give their personal opinion rather than a personal attack.
Nothing wrong disagreeing with an opinion. Should happen more often.

Something seriously wrong with thinking you know why someone else has chosen a particular carrier and spreading it all over the forum as fact.

I'm not a Qantas fanboi but I'm loyal to Qantas because their product suits my travel. I don't mind their schedules, I can tolerate their clientele (yes this is very important because you need to be comfortable on that length of flight), love the status benefits, airfares not always as high as some think, good alliance and reasonable service recovery.

And yes I do understand this will not be the same for all. Actually looking forward to neft weeks flight and HKG lounge crawl with wife and daughter followed up by another HKG lounge crawl in 4 weeks.
 

MEL_Traveller

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... and reasonable service recovery.
You see if i was a first time visitor to AFF I'd look at this and think 'great'... QF has good service recovery. Another reason, on top of all the praise you have also given them in other posts, that this confirms my reason to spend moremoney to fly QF.

But your experience as a platiunum probably has a huge impact on service recovery. For minor delays your sitting happily in a first class lounge. And probably on the next flight. For us regular flyers, without status, we could be stuck in the departures councourse for hours on end, with little or no information, and finally be given a flight 24 hours later. (These are actualy experiences of mine and others without status :()
 

JohnK

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You see if i was a first time visitor to AFF I'd look at this and think 'great'... QF has good service recovery. Another reason, on top of all the praise you have also given them in other posts, that this confirms my reason to spend moremoney to fly QF.
But note that service recovery is not great for the majority of airlines. Some are woeful.

TT has no chance. JQ is hopeless. Virgin is awful. CX is poor and I have little experience with SQ.

It's a competitive market out there. Book what suits not what someone recommends and once you've done enough you can have your own personal preferences.
 

33kft

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You see if i was a first time visitor to AFF I'd look at this and think 'great'... QF has good service recovery.
If you were a first time visitor here you'd have taken 2 turns and seen QF being bashed for everything from following Indonesia's immigration rules to charging a fee in USD to cancel a ticket. And if you were then to dare offer a positive view you'd be accused of being blinkered, suffering Stockholm Syndrome or working for QF.

You would soon learn from the worldly battle weary travellers that the only real airline is one that is in Asia, serves next to none of your market and gives you no local earning options for points but with a bit of messing around you can transfer your Australian dineros to world class dineros at a rate of 1:1.5 to fly places that they let you fly to and some young flight attendant will stroke your big frequent flyer ego like no western carrier can because that's the only way to travel.

Forget your lifetime whatevers, everyone has them, you will find a way to maintain your spend to keep that goodness coming because that's what everyone does.

Because there are no dissenting opinions.

Because there's only one way to be a frequent flyer. Just ask a real one.

Maybe we could sticky a primer for new members to make sure they couldn't possibly have their feeble minds posioned into thinking QF is good at anything at all, least of all service recovery. I mean, they might read this propaganda, start flying them, get reprogrammed and also fall under QF's captive spell mediocracy, another poor soul lost to Stockholm Syndrome before they could possibly try a real airline.

Lost forever.
 

MEL_Traveller

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If you were a first time visitor here you'd have taken 2 turns and seen QF being bashed for everything from following Indonesia's immigration rules to charging a fee in USD to cancel a ticket. And if you were then to dare offer a positive view you'd be accused of being blinkered, suffering Stockholm Syndrome or working for QF.

You would soon learn from the worldly battle weary travellers that the only real airline is one that is in Asia, serves next to none of your market and gives you no local earning options for points but with a bit of messing around you can transfer your Australian dineros to world class dineros at a rate of 1:1.5 to fly places that they let you fly to and some young flight attendant will stroke your big frequent flyer ego like no western carrier can because that's the only way to travel.

Forget your lifetime whatevers, everyone has them, you will find a way to maintain your spend to keep that goodness coming because that's what everyone does.

Because there are no dissenting opinions.

Because there's only one way to be a frequent flyer. Just ask a real one.

Maybe we could sticky a primer for new members to make sure they couldn't possibly have their feeble minds posioned into thinking QF is good at anything at all, least of all service recovery. I mean, they might read this propaganda, start flying them, get reprogrammed and also fall under QF's captive spell mediocracy, another poor soul lost to Stockholm Syndrome before they could possibly try a real airline.

Lost forever.
I'm not quite sure this is the way my comments were intended to come across. Amongst the healthy banter, sometimes statements about 'the best' airline may benefit from being considered in context. Having top tier status is perhaps one of those times. That equally applies to any passenger, any airline.
 

33kft

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I'm not quite sure this is the way my comments were intended to come across
It started off as a response and quickly morphed into a tangental spray on elitism on the forums. I don't mean for these comments to be attributed to any individual at all but I certainly don't take the comments back, there is a real problem on these forums and those of us who perceive it can either shut up and accept it or lose a little face and call it out. I've clearly chosen option B since I've spent the last week pointing out the blatant bias across the topics I've read.
 

juddles

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33kft, I have really enjoyed your posts. Even though I know that I could be unwittingly swept along in perceived elitism.

Those of us who have had the time here within AFF would have come to learn the different views, the usual dynamics in threads. Someone new to the forum would indeed be in a precarious position. This is probably as good as an excuse as any for the usuals (me included) to add their two cents to every thread, even if we ahve already done so before, ad nauseum.....
 

p--and--t

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Sep 28, 2008
Messages
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If you were a first time visitor here you'd have taken 2 turns and seen QF being bashed for everything from following Indonesia's immigration rules to charging a fee in USD to cancel a ticket. And if you were then to dare offer a positive view you'd be accused of being blinkered, suffering Stockholm Syndrome or working for QF.

You would soon learn from the worldly battle weary travellers that the only real airline is one that is in Asia, serves next to none of your market and gives you no local earning options for points but with a bit of messing around you can transfer your Australian dineros to world class dineros at a rate of 1:1.5 to fly places that they let you fly to and some young flight attendant will stroke your big frequent flyer ego like no western carrier can because that's the only way to travel.

Forget your lifetime whatevers, everyone has them, you will find a way to maintain your spend to keep that goodness coming because that's what everyone does.

Because there are no dissenting opinions.

Because there's only one way to be a frequent flyer. Just ask a real one.

Maybe we could sticky a primer for new members to make sure they couldn't possibly have their feeble minds posioned into thinking QF is good at anything at all, least of all service recovery. I mean, they might read this propaganda, start flying them, get reprogrammed and also fall under QF's captive spell mediocracy, another poor soul lost to Stockholm Syndrome before they could possibly try a real airline.

Lost forever.
I hear you loud and clear as a medium term lurker and relatively recent contributor.

After reading many of the various posts over many months I've been tempted to suggest AFF name be changed to AQF (Anti Qantas Forum).

It would seem from a number of threads some airlines are always allegedly perfect (they aren't) and QF is 99% bad at everything (it isn't - and loading factors show they are a preferred choice by many nonAFFers).

I had 4 sectors on VA last week. Not one out of 4 was up to the standard of what I expect and regularly receive on any QF flight as a bronze.
 

serfty

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...
It would seem from a number of threads some airlines are always allegedly perfect (they aren't) and QF is 99% bad at everything (it isn't - and loading factors show they are a preferred choice by many nonAFFers). ...
I have no specific issue with Qantas or any other airline. With my considerable experience* I know what I will get. What is true is that these days it is apparent that Qantas provide as little as possible in soft product as they believe they can get away with. Other airlines tend to provide more, presumably as they believe they need to compete harder.

e.g. This year, one month apart I experienced two daytime flights from MEL to HKG in economy; one on QF and the other on VA.

Qantas provided Lunch (being a meal under foil on a small white tray with a sort of garlicy roll on top, followed by an ice confection) and before landing a "refreshment" (in May it was three dim sum in a cardboard box).

Virgin Australia provides Lunch (tray with meal under foil, dessert, Bread roll, butter, cheese and biscuits) followed by "Dinner" (tray with meal under foil, snaccky item, dessert) before landing.

FWIW, I have been QF WP since 2005 and VA WP since 2011. I was Top Level Gold with Qantas in the 90's.

*> 1K Qantas RPT flights.
 

MEL_Traveller

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I hear you loud and clear as a medium term lurker and relatively recent contributor.

After reading many of the various posts over many months I've been tempted to suggest AFF name be changed to AQF (Anti Qantas Forum).

It would seem from a number of threads some airlines are always allegedly perfect (they aren't) and QF is 99% bad at everything (it isn't - and loading factors show they are a preferred choice by many nonAFFers).

I had 4 sectors on VA last week. Not one out of 4 was up to the standard of what I expect and regularly receive on any QF flight as a bronze.
It's a fair observation... but... perhaps there is some reasoning behind it.

They are our national airline. And when they start wanting taxpayer guarnatees, or seeking joint venutres with, for example CX or AA (which are more than likely to have a negative impact on consumers), or asking concessions from WA taxpayers, perhaps that allows an extra level of scutiny? And as Serfty points out, it's not like QF is world leading in terms of sorft product anymore. The provision of meals is one example. Or try getting through to sepak to someone at a call centre.

High load factors doesn't mean the service matches. Perhaps the Aussie market isn't that well informed about alternatives. But surely AFF is the forum to discuss these? Yes, you might have a consistently good experience on Qantas, but if that is driven by status, it's fair to mention that.
 

p--and--t

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But surely AFF is the forum to discuss these? Yes, you might have a consistently good experience on Qantas, but if that is driven by status, it's fair to mention that.
I reflected on that last night and on my flights in the last few years.

I actually don't have status with any current airline (as I stated I am a bronze with QF, pretty sure that doesn't count for anything)

This forum might be a bit grating for flyers, who even though they may have, or currently do, fly a reasonable amount but not bothered to chase status with an airline.

I have observed that clearly some airlines spend a lot of effort sucking up to statused passengers and couldn't give the proverbial about the plebs. Contrary to the marketing image they try to create, VA last week was a clear example of the above.

Some airlines do sucking up generally to all passengers better than others and one particular asian airline comes to mind (even though on observation it often comes across as quite insincere in my eyes).

I guess my experience as a pleb across many many airlines is vastly different to those who have worked hard to get attention and special favours from a smaller number of airlines.

I find QF crews can be a bit inconsistent from flight to flight and more getting on with the job than all fixed smiley faces, but they are generally genuine, mostly friendly and helpful (not in a servile manner) with small percentage that are obviously that are in the wrong career. Maybe it is a bit of Aussie culture coming through to not be so enamoured with DYKWIA and some of the extra niceties.

Opinion is coloured by experience and everyone has a different experience, but touch wood over several decades unlike several other airlines, I've not been seriously inconvenienced by QF flight operations and when there were IRROPS they were caused by an unavoidable event like an airport being closed for 4 hours due to fog and they recovered very quickly.

QF isn't perfect, but I haven't had a "perfect" experience on any airline.
 

MEL_Traveller

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QF isn't perfect, but I haven't had a "perfect" experience on any airline.
Oh, that’s disappointing. I have had many ‘perfect’ flights. Some of those have been on Qantas. But the problem with qantas, more so than any other airline, is the inconsistency of their crew.
 

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