Advice please - Etihad refusing compensation for involuntary downgrade

[Mr H]

Looks like my primary option is probably a credit card charge-back on the basis that part of the service I paid for was not supplied..... Any thoughts or alternative advice would be appreciated.

Sounds like you're trying to get a free kangaroo route business class ticket because you missed a sandwich you'd been promised. That sounds a bit fraudy to me.

Incidentally, I remember a guy on FT who was going to seize a TK plane for some similar breach of contracted service. I wonder whatever happened to him.

 

[Caversham04]

Etihad may be skewing the calculation in their favour, but it seems to me you are trying to make several skews the other way. First off: your contract was with Bestjet, not with the airline. Second, there simply was no business class on the flight you had booked - you were offered an alternative routing and presumably could have had your ticket refunded. Instead, you chose to fly on the metal available. Third, you are claiming some kind of hardship - but you would simply have had a slightly narrower seat and had to endure 50 minutes with only one drink to tide you over between lounges. Fourth, you are claiming that the lounge access is not relevant because you have status and could have accessed the lounge anyway, but this is nevertheless a significant element of the business class product.

We have all had to "endure" short connecting flights in economy on inter-continental itineraries and it isn't a deal breaker. When there is no J, there is no J.

Maybe you do have a moral entitlement to a small amount of compensation to make up for your disappointment, but your expectations are unrealistic. Think in terms of a bottle of wine or a very few thousand points. More than that sounds like DYKWIA.

Some of your points are fundamentally wrong, and I disagree with others:

1. Bestjet are the issuing agent for the ticket, but I would argue that the contract ultimately resides with Etihad as the airline that is delivering the service. They have fulfilled their end of the bargain by ticketing the flight as requested, and I don't see how they can realistically be responsible for VA cancelling the booked flight because of a shortage of aircrew - 3 remaining flights needed to go that evening; one to SYD and 2 to MEL but with only enough crew for 2 planes, so they cancelled the first MEL flight so that one flight operated to each destination. Looks very much like a VA or EY problem to me.......

2. You mentioned "We have all had to "endure" short connecting flights in economy on inter-continental itineraries and it isn't a deal breaker. When there is no J, there is no J". If you'd read the full thread, you would have seen that, as stated in the original post and several times subsequently, there WAS business class on the flight I originally booked. This flight was cancelled and I was downgraded in the lounge as the subsequent flight (which was the only remaining flight that would get me to MEL in time for my international flight) was an economy-only aircraft.....

3. I was flying to the UK for Xmas to visit family - to say "I could have had my ticket refunded" (and therefore not travel) is ridiculous.......

4. I am NOT claiming hardship - as stated SEVERAL TIMES, my point is that I didn't get the business class leg that I paid for, and am being denied any kind of compensation because VA's procedure is to issue a fully-flexible economy ticket for the new flight and Etihad are claiming that a fully-flexible economy ticket costs more, so they don't owe me anything......

5. A significant proportion of people flying business class would probably have status-based lounge access anyway. This will undoubtedly be factored into the cost calculations made by every airline. Stand-alone single-entry lounge access

Given that I WAS booked into Business for that leg, I don't see how you can believe that an expectation of compensation is unrealistic?

I don't have any DYKWIA issues - my point was, and remains, that I didn't get the service I paid for and Etihad are using deliberately-unfair calculations to avoid compensation, which pi$$es me off to the point where I don't see why I should just drop it. As noted extensively on this forum, Qantas use similar highly-dubious standard procedures of downgrading to a fully-flexible economy ticket, and then using the price of that fully-flexible economy ticket when calculating compensation. If everyone just shrugs, they'll continue to get away with it......

 

[Mr H]

 

[Caversham04]

Sounds like you're trying to get a free kangaroo route business class ticket because you missed a sandwich you'd been promised. That sounds a bit fraudy to me.

Incidentally, I remember a guy on FT who was going to seize a TK plane for some similar breach of contracted service. I wonder whatever happened to him.

My earlier post should have said a partial credit card charge-back to make things more clear.

Clearly, the compensation needs to be commensurate with the fact that it was a downgrade on the domestic leg of an international flight and hence I don't want or expect a " free kangaroo route business class ticket", just an acknowledgement and a small amount of compensation. A shonky claim that because I was downgraded onto a fully-flexible economy ticket (as per VA procedure), and because the cost of that fully-flexible economy ticket is higher than the business class ticket I actually bought, no payment is due doesn't really cut the mustard....

 

[Wedgetail]

Over Christmas, I flew in business on Etihad from Adelaide to Heathrow and back. The route for the outbound journey was ADL-MEL-AUH-LHR and the ticket was purchased through Bestjet.

My originally-booked ADL-MEL leg on Virgin Australia was at 18:00-ish on an EY codeshare flight number but the original plane was substituted for an all-economy A320 so, after a fair bit of hassle, I was switched to the 16:00-ish flight.

However, on the day of the flight, the 16:00-ish flight was cancelled due to crew shortages and, under protest, I took the 18:00-ish flight instead, in economy. Virgin had originally been trying to re-schedule and re-route my entire outbound itinerary, travelling the following day instead, via Sydney.

The lounge angel was very helpful, and indicated that compensation would be forthcoming. However, Virgin Australia and Etihad customer services are both refusing compensation and are telling me to contact Bestjet. Bestjet's administrators have replied to say that they won't be paying compensation.

Both airlines will obviously know that Bestjet is in administration and I suspect they are also aware that the administrators won't pay out in this particular situation, so they are trying to fob me off and avoid responsibility.

In some circumstances, I might be prepared to shrug my shoulders and let it go, but Etihad also managed to lose my luggage for seven days and persistently lied to me that it was on its way on their next flight out of MEL, when eventually it was sent on Qantas via Singapore! My expenses for replacement clothing came to around GBP200 and Etihad have (in theory) agreed to pay. However, despite returning the indemnity form on 22nd Jan, they still haven't paid the compensation into my bank account. I have sent several requests for an update, and I know they've received them as I set the e-mail to provide a Read Receipt, but they haven't replied to any of my e-mails. I'm therefore not prepared to shrug my shoulders on the involuntary downgrade.

Does anyone have any experience of a similar situation? I'm unclear how to continue to pursue compensation for the involuntary downgrade - would a partial credit card charge-back be an option? I'm also getting increasingly frustrated with the delay in them compensating me for the lost luggage, so any advice on this would also be appreciated.

Cavers ham 04 - It’s is really frustrating I had a similar problem on a long haul flight with a involuntary downgrade with Qantas/BA. (Qantas ticket) We had paid full fare for two business class seat from Sydney to London via Bankgkok. We received both boarding passes in Sydney with allocated seats. On arrival in Bangkok (5hr transit) in the Lounge - our boarding pass was taken and we were advised that we had been bumped and that we could have economy seats instead. We argued that we already had allocated seats and that they should bump people who hadn’t arrived at airport. No go. They weren’t interested in even talking to us. They advised to post a complaint to Facebook, which I did. No reply. They finally put us on Business on Thai Airways with a broken entertainment system - not even close to Qantas BA experience. Qantas and BA both advised that I needed to put in writing. No one would even speak to me about it. Finally Qantas offered us $250 off a future flight with them. No compensation. Appalling customer service and didn’t fly Qantas again for 3 years. Good luck with getting anything.

 

[Mr H]

I have just done a search on plane fares ADL-LHR and MEL-LHR in J with Emirates - dummy date 10 December. The fare costs more from MEL than ADL. So looking at dollar amounts is not going to be your friend.

 

[Caversham04]

Cavers ham 04 - It’s is really frustrating I had a similar problem on a long haul flight with a involuntary downgrade with Qantas/BA. (Qantas ticket) We had paid full fare for two business class seat from Sydney to London via Bankgkok. We received both boarding passes in Sydney with allocated seats. On arrival in Bangkok (5hr transit) in the Lounge - our boarding pass was taken and we were advised that we had been bumped and that we could have economy seats instead. We argued that we already had allocated seats and that they should bump people who hadn’t arrived at airport. No go. They weren’t interested in even talking to us. They advised to post a complaint to Facebook, which I did. No reply. They finally put us on Business on Thai Airways with a broken entertainment system - not even close to Qantas BA experience. Qantas and BA both advised that I needed to put in writing. No one would even speak to me about it. Finally Qantas offered us $250 off a future flight with them. No compensation. Appalling customer service and didn’t fly Qantas again for 3 years. Good luck with getting anything.

Sorry to hear that - Qantas are consistently shonky on this, as you'll see from multiple threads on here. We can vote with our feet but legal requirements would be better.......

 

[Caversham04]

I have just done a search on plane fares ADL-LHR and MEL-LHR in J with Emirates - dummy date 10 December. The fare costs more from MEL than ADL. So looking at dollar amounts is not going to be your friend.

Thank you for the info.!

 

[mel-world]

I have just done a search on plane fares ADL-LHR and MEL-LHR in J with Emirates - dummy date 10 December. The fare costs more from MEL than ADL. So looking at dollar amounts is not going to be your friend.

Maybe try the same with Etihad; I suspect you will get a similar result.

There maybe a breakdown on your E-ticket showing a value of the ADL-MEL segment in the price of the overall itinerary although if it is a published fare, this might not be broken out as a separate amount.

Much effort and anxiety for so little (potential) reward. Sometimes, you just have to accept the inevitable.

 

[sammy]

Well, I won’t be flying Etihad any more after reading this.

 

[Mr H]

Maybe try the same with Etihad; I suspect you will get a similar result.

My bad. I meant Etihad

 

[Caversham04]

Maybe try the same with Etihad; I suspect you will get a similar result.

There maybe a breakdown on your E-ticket showing a value of the ADL-MEL segment in the price of the overall itinerary although if it is a published fare, this might not be broken out as a separate amount.

Much effort and anxiety for so little (potential) reward. Sometimes, you just have to accept the inevitable.

Maybe try the same with Etihad; I suspect you will get a similar result.

There maybe a breakdown on your E-ticket showing a value of the ADL-MEL segment in the price of the overall itinerary although if it is a published fare, this might not be broken out as a separate amount.

Much effort and anxiety for so little (potential) reward. Sometimes, you just have to accept the inevitable.

It's more the principle than the amount..........

 

[Blinky]

In summary - the overall responses have been

• VA - despite the lounge angel advising VA would definitely provide compensation, they have subsequently said "not our problem; contact Bestjet [as the ticket issuer]", knowing full-well that Bestjet are now in administration
• Bestjet Administrators - "cough* off - we're the Liquidators and we don't give a sh**"; I'm para-phrasing, but not by much.....
• Etihad - no compensation due as you were issued a new economy ticket for your involuntary downgrade at the fully-flexible rate, and this costs more than the business class ticket you bought, so no compensation is due

Looks like my primary option is probably a partial credit card charge-back on the basis that part of the service I paid for was not supplied..... Any thoughts or alternative advice would be appreciated. I realise that in the grand scheme of things it's not a massive deal, but the whole principle of everyone either (i) passing the buck and refusing to take responsibility, and / or (ii) using deliberately skewed procedures such as calculations based on walk-up prices, just really pi$$es me off to the point where I'm going to continue to pursue things......

Does SA have the equivalent of Victoria’s VCAT? I’ve threatened to take Apple and Harvey Norman to VCAT (and I would have done so) to see them both cave in to my reasonable demands (one to repair a laptop just out of warranty, and another to replace a damaged TV HN declared wasn’t their problem). Businesses will settle small claims before bringing the lawyers.

 

[samh004]

Does SA have the equivalent of Victoria’s VCAT? I’ve threatened to take Apple and Harvey Norman to VCAT (and I would have done so) to see them both cave in to my reasonable demands (one to repair a laptop just out of warranty, and another to replace a damaged TV HN declared wasn’t their problem). Businesses will settle small claims before bringing the lawyers.

This is what I would think is the best route to go too. At this stage, they've got your money and think they wont need to pay any more to anyone else, but as soon as this comes up in small claims, it'll start costing them money again.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

... my issue was (and remains) that I paid for Business Class on that leg, was involuntarily downgraded to economy, and am being told that no compensation is due because of the deceitful way that they deliberately skew the calculation in their favour by using the walk-up fully-flexible economy price to calculate that no compensation is due.........

had this been a stand-alone ADL-MEL, or a much longer segment of the international flight I agree totally that the airlines using a full walk-up fare to calculate your downgrading is unreasonable. And should be something that is pursued with legal action if required.

But this circumstance is quite different. Regardless of how VA accommodated you (full walk up or discount), the overall end-to-end fare is what counts here - the ADL-Europe. In this case the diference in fare for that tiny sector is going to be negligible, if anything.

I think here the outcome is right, just they have communicated it wrongly.

1. Bestjet are the issuing agent for the ticket, but I would argue that the contract ultimately resides with Etihad as the airline that is delivering the service.

Correct. Bestjet is acting as agent for Etihad and Virgin.

They finally put us on Business on Thai Airways with a broken entertainment system - not even close to Qantas BA experience.

These days a change from QF to TG would actually be considered an upgrade! (But not so in the days when QF was flying via BKK.)

 

[oz_mark]

In summary - the overall responses have been

• VA - despite the lounge angel advising VA would definitely provide compensation, they have subsequently said "not our problem; contact Bestjet [as the ticket issuer]", knowing full-well that Bestjet are now in administration
• Bestjet Administrators - "cough* off - we're the Liquidators and we don't give a sh**"; I'm para-phrasing, but not by much.....
• Etihad - no compensation due as you were issued a new economy ticket for your involuntary downgrade at the fully-flexible rate, and this costs more than the business class ticket you bought, so no compensation is due

Looks like my primary option is probably a partial credit card charge-back on the basis that part of the service I paid for was not supplied..... Any thoughts or alternative advice would be appreciated. I realise that in the grand scheme of things it's not a massive deal, but the whole principle of everyone either (i) passing the buck and refusing to take responsibility, and / or (ii) using deliberately skewed procedures such as calculations based on walk-up prices, just really pi$$es me off to the point where I'm going to continue to pursue things......

A partial credit card charge-back is likely to take you into the whole murky world of Integra Pay (as payment processor for BestJet), and all that is going to entail. More than likely, they will reject the claim, and want a truck load of paperwork!

@TonyHancock might be able to give some advice on how that will go!

 

[Caversham04]

had this been a stand-alone ADL-MEL, or a much longer segment of the international flight I agree totally that the airlines using a full walk-up fare to calculate your downgrading is unreasonable. And should be something that is pursued with legal action if required. But this circumstance is quite different. Regardless of how VA accommodated you (full walk up or discount), the overall end-to-end fare is what counts here - the ADL-Europe. In this case the diference in fare for that tiny sector is going to be negligible, if anything. I think here the outcome is right, just they have communicated it wrongly.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - involuntarily downgrading someone (even for the short leg of a longer trip) and refusing to compensate them can never be "the right outcome", otherwise where do you draw the line?

It's run by the airlines and is (unsurprisingly) entirely skewed in their favour..... Their procedures for an on-the-day and in-lounge downgrade automatically allocate you into the most expensive, fully-flexible economy fare bucket, and then they say "Ah-ha - the fully-flexible economy ticket that we forced on you when we downgraded you from business is more expensive than the business class ticket you paid for, so we don't owe you anything". That's not right, fair or morally acceptable, and the proportion of the overall journey is irrelevant.....

 

[Caversham04]

A partial credit card charge-back is likely to take you into the whole murky world of Integra Pay (as payment processor for BestJet), and all that is going to entail. More than likely, they will reject the claim, and want a truck load of paperwork!

@TonyHancock might be able to give some advice on how that will go!

Yikes - sounds messy!

 

[TonyHancock]

Yikes - sounds messy!

Indeed. With Bestjet in liquidation the chargebacks have landed at the door of the payment aggregator Integrapay. I really do not know how you would go with a chargeback based on an involuntary downgrade on a single sector. One thing is certain IntegraPay has absolutely no information about Bestjet bookings.

 

[Duffa]

• Etihad - no compensation due as you were issued a new economy ticket for your involuntary downgrade at the fully-flexible rate, and this costs more than the business class ticket you bought, so no compensation is due

Don't know if this is over-paranoia but every time I book a paid J fare, I do a dummy booking of the same flight in economy and screen-shot it.
So far, I haven't had to invoke it but I figure it's good insurance - and in only takes about 5 minutes