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787 is gonna be late!

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jasonja3

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Probably very frustrated as this will further hamper QF and Esp. JQ's expansion, but in saying that, surely they would have anticipated some kind of delay given that they are building a brand new A/C.
 

NM

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So long as the initial delay does not exceed 6 months, its going to be annoying but not a major problem to QF and others. I think most airlines would have planned for up to 6 months delay. And I expect they will catch up the delay over the first 2 years or so of manufacturing.
 

ANstar

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I thought it strange QF ordered A330's for delviery after the 787's were due.... now it seems like the got burned once and planned for a small delay.
 

serfty

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Methinks any pain Qantas may feel by 787 delays will be somewhat alleviated by the fact that these few brand new A332's soon to begin operating were very inexpensive.
.
 
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simongr

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I had my second and third experiences of the A330 yesterday and I am really preferring it to the 747 in J (obviously the lack of F is a downer). The aircraft looks and feels newer and the 2-2-2 seating in J guarantees access to the ailse and no crawl-overs and if flying with mrssimongr we are guaranteed to be just the two of us together. Also the Tumi rollaboard fits in wheels first so takes up less overhead space :)
 

NM

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ANstar said:
I thought it strange QF ordered A330's for delviery after the 787's were due.... now it seems like the got burned once and planned for a small delay.
well they really didn't have much choice. The A330 orders were partly as compensation for A380 deliveries (purchase price heavily subsidised by Airbus), and they had to wait until there were spare delivery slots on the order book. They could hardly ask Airbus to subsidise the purchase of Boeing 787s, now could they?
 

NM

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serfty said:
Methinks any pain Qantas may feel by 787 delays will be somewhat alleviated by the fact that these few brand new A333's soon to begin operating were very inexpensive.
The new ones as part of the A380 compensation are A330-200 models. They will be configured with Skybreds and operate routes like QF25/26 MEL-AKL-LAX-AKL-MEL, SYD-PVG and SYD-BOM, as well as some NRT routes. I believe all the A330-300s were ordered at the time of the original A330/380 purchase and have now all been delivered.
 

moa999

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so what compensation is Qantas getting from Boeing...

Cheap options on a 747-8 lol.
 

NM

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aubs said:
so what compensation is Qantas getting from Boeing...

Cheap options on a 747-8 lol.
We have not heard how a planned 6 month delay to first delivery may affect deliveries to QF who are not scheduled for their first arrival until about 15 months later. So don't assume there will be any compensation. Its a little different to the 2 years delay for the A380.

But if there was to be any such compensation, assume it would be in terms of discounts on further 787 orders or perhaps 73H orders or even on a total care package.

As we found with Airbus and the A380, delivery schedules can be varied many times through the process. In this case, Boeing are at the mercy of their suppliers.
 

serfty

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NM said:
The new ones as part of the A380 compensation are A330-200 models. They will be configured with Skybreds and operate routes like QF25/26 MEL-AKL-LAX-AKL-MEL, SYD-PVG and SYD-BOM, as well as some NRT routes. ...
Yep, that was a mistype (sort of like skybreds [although that's an eybrow raising concept:shock: ])

Here's the Qantas Press release from a year ago: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft
Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sydney, 29 October 2006

Qantas Airways announced today that it had placed firm orders for eight more Airbus A380s, the world’s largest passenger aircraft.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the order increased the airline’s commitment to the A380 to 20 aircraft, to be delivered between August 2008 and 2015. ...

... Mr Dixon said Qantas had made an original order for 12 A380s with options for a further 12 aircraft in 2000.

"We have negotiated an attractive ‘package’ to firm up an additional eight A380s. The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft which will help Qantas mitigate capacity concerns associated with the delay of the airline’s first A380s.

"The four A330-200s will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2008."

Mr Dixon said the terms of the new contract provided, among other things, protection against any further delay in the A380 delivery schedule and slide rights in the event of changed circumstances.

He said the Qantas Board believed the new aircraft order gave the Qantas Group long term certainty of supply of the world’s most up to date aircraft.

"In parallel with the A380 order, we have a contract with Boeing for the supply from 2008 of up to 115 B787 new generation aircraft, which also have the very latest technology for aircraft in the 300 seater range.
 

serfty

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Jetstar had expected to take delivery of its first B787-8 aircraft in July next year.

So there is a definite delay of at least 4 months for JQ, probably more. Jetstar were to get the Qantas groups first 15.

As for Qantas specifically they were to take delivery of the first B787 in July 2009.
 

ANstar

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NM said:
We have not heard how a planned 6 month delay to first delivery may affect deliveries to QF who are not scheduled for their first arrival until about 15 months later. So don't assume there will be any compensation. Its a little different to the 2 years delay for the A380.
JQ were due to start receiving their 787's next year... so QF will be due compo.

It will also mean a further delay in 743 retirement as the A332's from JQ won't be freed up to go back to domestic.
 

NM

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ANstar said:
JQ were due to start receiving their 787's next year... so QF will be due compo.
That depends on what is written in the contract regarding guarantee of delivery dates. I doubt any of us are privy to the contract terms and conditions in order to comment on whether or not QF will be due compensation.
 

NM

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serfty said:
Yep, that was a mistype (sort of like skybreds [although that's an eybrow raising concept:shock: ])
Well, some might say they are crumby :rolleyes: Perhaps hard and cold like a bread roll served on QF?
 

ANstar

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NM said:
That depends on what is written in the contract regarding guarantee of delivery dates. I doubt any of us are privy to the contract terms and conditions in order to comment on whether or not QF will be due compensation.
""Compensation issues will be the subject of commercial negotiations between the Qantas and Boeing companies.''

Boeing delays won't hit earnings: Qantas - Business - Business - smh.com.au

Sounds like they will be due compensation. I can't see QF having a 6 month delay and getting zip.
 

NM

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ANstar said:
Sounds like they will be due compensation. I can't see QF having a 6 month delay and getting zip.
Indeed that would be my personal expectation. But without being privy to the contract terms, I am not willing to use words like "will" in the context of compensation agreements.
 

serfty

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So the first Qantas B787 won't go into service as was expected in July 2009; it's going to be at least December. So definitely delays to Qantas delivery; there will surely be compensation of some form or another.

Boeing delays won't hit earnings: Qantas

October 11, 2007 - 10:36AM

Qantas says a delay in the delivery of its Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft will not materially affect its operations. ...

... Chief executive Geoff Dixon said Boeing this morning had assured Qantas that the 15 Dreamliners scheduled for delivery between August 2008 and December 2009 would all be delivered by the 2009 date.

"Boeing said the August 2008 aircraft would slip, but not by six months,'' he said.

"Once that aircraft arrives, the remaining 14 aircraft deliveries will be staggered until December 2009.''

Qantas has 65 firm orders for the 787s, 20 options and 30 purchase rights.

The first 15 aircraft are scheduled for use by Qantas' low cost offshoot Jetstar for its international operations.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had contingency plans for any short-term capacity shortages.

"Once Boeing confirms a revised delivery schedule we will assess the need for any other measures such as delaying the retirement of aircraft,'' he added.

"Compensation issues will be the subject of commercial negotiations between the Qantas and Boeing companies.'' ...
 
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maninblack

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There must be some cost and capacity issues for QF. Several of the remaining 743's are due for D check soon and were to be retired. I am told that a number of 744's are also soon due for D check, though they were not to be retired yet. Apparently a number of other 744's though were to be retired around 2009/10 also.

With the rising $AUD travel is on the up. JQ are desperate for extra capacity and route expansion. QF wanted to retire 743's ( I believe by 2009, which isn't far off) and get 763's off international routes and none of this will be happening on time, unles QF actually shrinks some services.

Similarly for us passengers who were looking forward to seeing the end of 763's on international services it looks like we will be waiting longer for that happy day too.
 

NM

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maninblack said:
There must be some cost and capacity issues for QF. Several of the remaining 743's are due for D check soon and were to be retired. I am told that a number of 744's are also soon due for D check, though they were not to be retired yet. Apparently a number of other 744's though were to be retired around 2009/10 also.
Yes, there will certainly be a cost to keep the remaining 743s operating on the domestic trans-con routes while QF awaits the delivery of the JQ 787-8s which will free up the A332s to return to domestic ops. But there is also the saving of not having to make final capital payments for the new aircraft until delivery. Which side of the ledger is greater is unknown to me. But at least there is some off-set.
maninblack said:
With the rising $AUD travel is on the up. JQ are desperate for extra capacity and route expansion. QF wanted to retire 743's ( I believe by 2009, which isn't far off) and get 763's off international routes and none of this will be happening on time, unles QF actually shrinks some services.
Of course the rising A$ (or more accurately the plummeting US$) will also have a positive affect on QF's bottom line if it remains this way when purchase payments are due (which I assume are fixed in US$).

Perhaps QF could take the first few A380s and paint them silver and orange, and squeeze in 800 seats and loan them to JQ for a few months :shock:
maninblack said:
Similarly for us passengers who were looking forward to seeing the end of 763's on international services it looks like we will be waiting longer for that happy day too.
If it pans out as Boeing are suggesting (i.e. no further delays) then the 763 retirement should not be affected. They are suggesting that the first 15 x 787 (which are for JQ) will be delivered by the same final date. So they are suggesting they will catch up the delay over the first 18 months or so. That would mean the QF 787s are planned to be delivered pretty much on time, and its those deliveries that will see the 767s move off QF international routes.

The delivery of the 6 new A332s will help to get rid of some 763 international ops. But that just means more 763s to be converted to domestic config for AU and trans-Tasman ops.
 
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