777 or A330 to replace Government 737BBJ?

[JessicaTam]

Well he is on the qf board. I'm sure he can convince the gov that it makes more sense to buy an old qf 747 and refurb it :O

Nah, all the pollies need to do is put some of their FF points to good use by booking JASAs. After the PM's PA tries to book just one over the phone we'll have them back online in no time!

 

[Fruitcake]

Re: Airbus A330, Boeing 777 as next VIP jet for Australian PM?

The current 737BBJs sound pretty out-dated according to this article!

The only criticism that the article and the one it is based on makes is that the seats are uncomfortable. Or at least, the seats looked uncomfortable when the author received a tour of the aircraft a decade or more ago. The US Air Force uses the BBJ as the C-40B for senior military and government transport.

The VC-25s commonly used as Air Force One were designed in the late 1980s, so the BBJ design is a decade newer.

My completely uninformed opinion - buy a sleeper suite for the BBJs, let the press fly commercial if there's not enough room down the back, and as markis suggests charter an airliner if you're flying a big group somewhere unusual.

 

[Flying Fox]

Re: Airbus A330, Boeing 777 as next VIP jet for Australian PM?

Used 747s would be a good pic.

Plus according to this article, the VC-25s currently being used as Air Force One will be for sale soon and they will be replaced by a trio of aircraft.

Five fun facts about Air Force One - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller

 

[markis10]

Re: Airbus A330, Boeing 777 as next VIP jet for Australian PM?

Used 747s would be a good pic.

Plus according to this article, the VC-25s currently being used as Air Force One will be for sale soon and they will be replaced by a trio of aircraft.

Five fun facts about Air Force One - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller

Bit of fluff that article, the real issue for the US is what they will do to replace the 4 strong Kneecaps (E4Bs).

 

[Boris spatsky]

What can land at CBR

All aircraft discussed up to the 744 can land at Canberra, but useful payload (cargo and pax) vs range (fuel) can be severely limited for takeoff due to varying weather conditions. When the BBJs were leased, the A330 was ruled out because in some conditions, it would have had to fly to Sydney to refuel (due being severely weight limited out of Canberra) before continuing to west coast USA. That made the larger aircraft no faster than the BBJ that could go direct to Honolulu in most cases.

Some of these issues have been mitigated by the runway extension at Canberra in the last few years.

 

[Awesom Andy]

The BBJ has a claimed cruising speed of 0.82M, which is the same as the A330. Not sure which version the government is using at the moment, but the BBJ3 based on the 739ER should be able to fit in quite a few more than 35 seats at the back, and has the range for a non-stop CBR-FNJ flight.

 

[maninblack]

QF has plenty of options on the 787. Maybe the govt could do a deal with QF on that playing field issue and get a cheap sub-lease in return.

 

[Fruitcake]

The BBJ has a claimed cruising speed of 0.82M, which is the same as the A330. Not sure which version the government is using at the moment, but the BBJ3 based on the 739ER should be able to fit in quite a few more than 35 seats at the back, and has the range for a non-stop CBR-FNJ flight.

I'd buy tickets to watch a BBJ3 at MTOW departing CBR on a hot day - the resulting video would probably be almost as spectacular as that of the infamous 'vodka burning' IL-76 .

 

[markis10]

I'd buy tickets to watch a BBJ3 at MTOW departing CBR on a hot day - the resulting video would probably be almost as spectacular as that of the infamous 'vodka burning' IL-76 .

Sold, you have 1A and B in the Kingsford Smith grandstand located on the extended centreline in the overrun area , BYO spare undies.

 

[maninblack]

CBR runway is now almost 11,000 ft available so no problem for a BBJ3. That infamous vodka burner video is of an underpowered probably overloaded plane on an 8000ft strip.

Doubt the govt jets will ever be running at MTOW anyway. Max fuel yes, MTOW not likely.

 

[Boris spatsky]

The BBJ has a claimed cruising speed of 0.82M, which is the same as the A330. Not sure which version the government is using at the moment, but the BBJ3 based on the 739ER should be able to fit in quite a few more than 35 seats at the back, and has the range for a non-stop CBR-FNJ flight.

The current aircraft are BBJ1s, based on the 737-700. Cruise is typically M0.79 or thereabouts.

 

[Fruitcake]

CBR runway is now almost 11,000 ft available so no problem for a BBJ3. That infamous vodka burner video is of an underpowered probably overloaded plane on an 8000ft strip.

Doubt the govt jets will ever be running at MTOW anyway. Max fuel yes, MTOW not likely.

That is true, although performance will still get constrained very quickly on a hot day. Even at 30 degrees:

Edit: That image is unreadable - see chart here.

Or for a 40 degree day:
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/737sec3.pdf#page=74

For the vast majority of missions I agree a BBJ3 will have absolutely no issues in Canberra. But it will not be able to reliably fly anything near its max published range ex-CBR.

 

[markis10]

Doubt the govt jets will ever be running at MTOW anyway. Max fuel yes, MTOW not likely.

Depending on the config, a BBJ empty plus max fuel will exceed MTOW.

 

[maninblack]

Depending on the config, a BBJ empty plus max fuel will exceed MTOW.

Can they carry 40 tons of fuel? That's nearly 50,000 litres!

 

[markis10]

Can they carry 40 tons of fuel? That's nearly 50,000 litres!

BBJ3 73470lbs fuel
Typical zero fuel operating weight with nil payload 110345lbs
MTOW 187700lbs

So around 4000lbs to spare, easily eaten up depending on actual aircraft config re fittings etc, the BBJ actually has a special lightweight interior to allow it to take max fuel at present.

 

[maninblack]

So what's the range with max fuel but minimum fit out and crew only? Must be looooooong!

 

[Awesom Andy]

For the vast majority of missions I agree a BBJ3 will have absolutely no issues in Canberra. But it will not be able to reliably fly anything near its max published range ex-CBR.

It's enough to reach Asian trading partners non-stop. For everywhere else, with the limitations of CBR in mind, I would think that larger planes would also require a stop somewhere en-route.

 

[markis10]

So what's the range with max fuel but minimum fit out and crew only? Must be looooooong!

Not really.

 

[maninblack]

Not really.

Okay interesting, so it remains a middle range aircraft. It seems an A332 can go quite a bit further with only marginally longer runway requirements at MTOW. (and of course is far bigger) QF did use them AKL-LAX, I wonder what the longest A332 commercial route is.

 

[Fruitcake]

I wonder what the longest A332 commercial route is.

Seoul to Nairobi is apparently the longest currently operated route (6250 mi) although AKL-LAX was about 250 mi longer.