Western Sydney Airport (WSI) Discussion

[MEL_Traveller]

Looking at the picture in the editor’s review… there are 7 gates. Where’s the room for expansion? If it’s going to be a serious airport and not another Avalon… is there room for 50+ gates to handle both domestic and international?,

 

[kerfuffle]

Looking at the picture in the editor’s review… there are 7 gates. Where’s the room for expansion? If it’s going to be a serious airport and not another Avalon… is there room for 50+ gates to handle both domestic and international?,

By building more terminals? I think the end goal is four terminals

 

[MEL_Traveller]

By building more terminals? I think the end goal is four terminals

I get that! But i was just trying to visualise the apparently available land, and where they’d fit another 50+ gates?

 

[piec]

https://www.wsiairport.com.au/vision-growth

Page 75 on the Master Plan doc

 

[Aussie_flyer]

I get that! But i was just trying to visualise the apparently available land, and where they’d fit another 50+ gates?

There's so much space outside the terminal now it looks like there's loads of room

 

[moa999]

Current terminal is built for 10M pax a year..

The full master plan gets you to 80M including a 2nd parallel runway and a 2nd railway line (initially another Metro but under more recent plans an HSR line)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There's so much space outside the terminal now it looks like there's loads of room

Im just downloading the master plan linked by piec. The proposed utilisation looks good! It won’t be like a series of separate terminals by the look of it, but more like a shanghai pudding and BKK mix.

Visually for me, taking the current 7 gates and using that same footprint I couldn’t see it!

Current terminal 10 million pax? Guess there’s gonna be a lot of bus gates or walking. 10m pax = 27,000 per day. With 7 gates @200 pax per plane = 19 planes per gate per day. Dreaming.

 

[Harrison_133]

Visually for me, taking the current 7 gates and using that same footprint I couldn’t see it!

Current terminal 10 million pax? Guess there’s gonna be a lot of bus gates or walking. 10m pax = 27,000 per day. With 7 gates @200 pax per plane = 19 planes per gate per day. Dreaming.

7 widebody gates but up to 14 narrowbody gates.

Plus 4 walk out / bus bays.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

7 widebody gates but up to 14 narrowbody gates.

Plus 4 walk out / bus bays.

Yes those gates have dual air bridges hence the a/b designations and room to accommodate 2 narrow bodies at once with a bridge on each

 

[Saab34]

Current terminal 10 million pax? Guess there’s gonna be a lot of bus gates or walking. 10m pax = 27,000 per day. With 7 gates @200 pax per plane = 19 planes per gate per day.

I think that’s a long way off. The growth will need to be International as domestic has its limits (Sydney Domestic Traffic 2010 -24m…15 years later…2025- 25m), as International is driving the growth in the Sydney area.


The airport will never get to 80m in our lifetime. Probably not even 20m.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

https://www.wsiairport.com.au/vision-growth Page 75 on the Master Plan doc

I note the final master plan has what look like satellite bays and something labelled "APM Connector" to which there is no reference in the text.
I was guessing "Automated Passenger Movement" ., but research says "Automated People Mover" which sounds hideous.
It sounds like an automated Toyota Tarago or similar. Who chooses these names and don't they ever research previous usage?
Apparently this will connect to the future metro station as well as to the satellite gates. It looks like a long distance so maybe some kind of automated shuttle train. Can anyone shed any light on that?

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Here's a pic demonstrating how there is room for 2 narrow bodies here

 

[kamchatsky]

I note the final master plan has what look like satellite bays and something labelled "APM Connector" to which there is no reference in the text.
I was guessing "Automated Passenger Movement" ., but research says "Automated People Mover" which sounds hideous.
It sounds like an automated Toyota Tarago or similar. Who chooses these names and don't they ever research previous usage?
Apparently this will connect to the future metro station as well as to the satellite gates. It looks like a long distance so maybe some kind of automated shuttle train. Can anyone shed any light on that?

APM is the standard term used for automated transport of people in airports, like the APM at HKG or Sky Train at SIN

Automated People Mover, Airport Facilities & Services - Hong Kong International Airport

Airport Facilities and Services The Automated People Mover takes passengers from Terminal 2 to Terminal 1 and between Terminal 1, T1 Midfield Concourse and SkyPier.

www.hongkongairport.com

Changi Airport Skytrain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[esseeeayeenn]

APM is the standard term used for automated transport of people in airports, like the APM at HKG or Sky Train at SIN

Automated People Mover, Airport Facilities & Services - Hong Kong International Airport

Airport Facilities and Services The Automated People Mover takes passengers from Terminal 2 to Terminal 1 and between Terminal 1, T1 Midfield Concourse and SkyPier.

www.hongkongairport.com

Changi Airport Skytrain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's still a horribly jarring term in English.

 

[clifford]

The airport will never get to 80m in our lifetime. Probably not even 20m.

Or in the lifetime of our great grandchildren.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Or in the lifetime of our great grandchildren.

Well I suppose it was really built to win votes in the Sydney electorates under the flightpaths of SYD, rather than to cater to any real demand.

 

[elanshin]

Well I suppose it was really built to win votes in the Sydney electorates under the flightpaths of SYD, rather than to cater to any real demand.

That is not true at all. Whilst passenger dtill has some room to grow at SYD, freight most certainly would struggle. Especially as freight really wants overnight flight access.

You also don't build an airport when the last one is at capacity, you do it beforehand and let it grow and organically increase demand in the region.

As many have said theres more people in the catchment of WSI than Adelaide. I wouldn't be surprised if WSI catchment becomes bigger than PER within a decade at the rate of growth in Sydney as well.

 

[dajop]

Current terminal 10 million pax? Guess there’s gonna be a lot of bus gates or walking. 10m pax = 27,000 per day. With 7 gates @200 pax per plane = 19 planes per gate per day. Dreaming.

Don’t forget that 10m included arrivals and departures . So for each 200 seat aircraft, that’s 400 pax in a turnaround and that’s only 10 planes per gate per day. With an 1.5hrs turnaround per plane, it’s in theory achievable over 7am-10pm (if needed!)

 

[Saab34]

Or in the lifetime of our great grandchildren.

I just don’t know where these forecasts come from (well I know, government consulting, also explains our budget issues). If you cycle back say 20 odd years and look at the forecasts in the 2009 Sydney Airport Master Plan, and what is actually occurring, they might want to ask for a refund on consulting fees.

The 2004/2009 Master Plans had the below forecasts.

2024 Forecast: 69m passengers (Actual 41m)
2029 Forecast: 79m passengers (Last year 42m)

Between 2015 to 2025 Total Domestic Passengers in Sydney actually went backwards. They have not included the flatness in demand in future models, so these over forecasts in future models roll on.

WSI will get growth as mentioned above, but the Sydney basin won’t see the near 100m passengers per year they both are forecasting for 2045. Domestic just isn’t doing the heavy lifting anymore compared to prior decades, and it’s also in all airlines interests to keep a close lid on Sydney capacity to bolster margins on what is a very profitable part of the puzzle, can’t any anyone wanting to flood the market too much in what is a zero growth domestic market.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

That is not true at all. Whilst passenger dtill has some room to grow at SYD, freight most certainly would struggle. Especially as freight really wants overnight flight access.

You also don't build an airport when the last one is at capacity, you do it beforehand and let it grow and organically increase demand in the region.

As many have said theres more people in the catchment of WSI than Adelaide. I wouldn't be surprised if WSI catchment becomes bigger than PER within a decade at the rate of growth in Sydney as well.

There are two different questions:
(1) Why was it planned for?
(2) Why was it approved, funded and built?
The answer to the second is always political.
Otherwise, we would have high speed rail already.