MH140 granted SYD curfew dispensation tonight

[Melburnian1]

MH140 is timetabled to depart SYD at 2140 for KUL.

The aircraft arrived in SYD 18 minutes late at 1933 tonight, so something obviously went wrong after that time. The aircraft is A333 9M-MTJ.

It appeared (at 2315 or so) to have been granted a dispensation from the SYD curfew as it pushed back at about 2320, a minute or so ago, although I later amended my post as below. Do any AFFers know what went wrong?

At 2329, the controller gave the pilot a factual statement about 'penalties apply (for breach of curfew.'

At 2333, ATC said to the pilot that 'your company is (making further enquiries) - apologies, I did not write down the exact words used.

At 2335, MH140's pilot advised that it would go back to what ATC advised was Bay 5.

At 2337, the pilot then advised that his intention was to take off from SYD at 2345.

At 2340, ATC made another factual statement about curfew restrictions and how penalties apply (for breaches). The MH pilot advised that he believed the company had dispensation 'from CBR' for the flight to take off until 2345. As far as I can work out, MH140 took off at about 2342.

Presumably these dispensations are unpopular with some local residents. I can see both sides: while aircraft have become quieter, local residents deserve some 'quality of life' (this argument is less relevant if departures ex SYD are to the south), but on the other hand, the cost to an airline of such a delay is significant. In MH's case, it could well cascade into delaying a flight the next day depending on the planned flight rotations for the aircraft.

It was interesting that the controller remained 'deadpan' in delivery throughout; one could not detect any slight anger or bemusement. I suppose he's heard and seen it all before.

 

[mannej]

MH140 is timetabled to depart SYD at 2140 for KUL.

The aircraft arrived in SYD 18 minutes late at 1933 tonight, so something obviously went wrong. The aircraft is A333 9M-MTJ.

It appeared (at 2315 or so) to have been granted a dispensation from the SYD curfew as it pushed back at about 2320, a minute or so ago, although I later amended my post as below. Do any AFFers know what went wrong?

At 2329, the controller gave the pilot a factual statement about 'penalties apply (for breach of curfew.'

At 2333, ATC said to the pilot that 'your company is (making further enquiries) - apologies, I did not write down the exact words used.

At 2335, MH140's pilot advised that it would go back to what ATC advised was Bay 5.

At 2337, the pilot then advised that his intention was to take off from SYD at 2345.

At 2340, ATC made another factual statement about curfew restrictions and how penalties apply (for breaches). The MH pilot advised that he believed the company had dispensation for the flight to take off until 2345.

It would be interesting to see if there was dispensation or the MH Crew breached the curfew.

 

[jetlagger]

MH140 is timetabled to depart SYD at 2140 for KUL.

The aircraft arrived in SYD 18 minutes late at 1933 tonight, so something obviously went wrong. The aircraft is A333 9M-MTJ.

It appeared (at 2315 or so) to have been granted a dispensation from the SYD curfew as it pushed back at about 2320, a minute or so ago, although I later amended my post as below. Do any AFFers know what went wrong?

At 2329, the controller gave the pilot a factual statement about 'penalties apply (for breach of curfew.'

At 2333, ATC said to the pilot that 'your company is (making further enquiries) - apologies, I did not write down the exact words used.

At 2335, MH140's pilot advised that it would go back to what ATC advised was Bay 5.

At 2337, the pilot then advised that his intention was to take off from SYD at 2345.

At 2340, ATC made another factual statement about curfew restrictions and how penalties apply (for breaches). The MH pilot advised that he believed the company had dispensation for the flight to take off until 2345.

Interesting..

FWIW.. MH135 KUL/BNE arrived 35 mins delay this evening, though I suspect it was more related to ATC restrictions, though departed as per schedule @ 2320.

It's more pleasant to know that BNE doesn't have strict curfew restrictions, creating a stressful working environment for the airline as per your post.

Though the immigration staffing levels at BNE are becoming very frustratingly 'thin" at times.

 

[Melburnian1]

BNE must be stressful with its single operational runway. I don't think it's a job I'd enjoy.

 

[Melburnian1]

mannej, if MH breached curfew without authority, it will be heavily fined.

This happened to JQ one night and was eventually reported by the media:

Jetstar Fined $148,500 For Breach Of Sydney Airport Curfew

 

[JohnK]

Presumably these dispensations are unpopular with some local residents. I can see both sides: while aircraft have become quieter, local residents deserve some 'quality of life' (this argument is less relevant if departures ex SYD are to the south), but on the other hand, the cost to an airline of such a delay is significant. In MH's case, it could well cascade into delaying a flight the next day depending on the planned flight rotations for the aircraft.

I am one of those for the curfew.

I am not against some aircraft given dispensation to take off after curfew occasionally without penalty with good reasons. I do not want to see flights scheduled during curfew hours.

 

[jetlagger]

BNE must be stressful with its single operational runway. I don't think it's a job I'd enjoy.

It's a joke really... There was certainly much better foresight 100/50/30 years ago..
Especially with the availability of excess land. BAC should be held fully responsible for hindering air transport growth.
It appears their only priority is to build more car parks. :evil:
Back OT..

 

[Melburnian1]

It's hard to assess properly given that he wasn't speaking in his native language, but the MH pilot of MH140 sounded rather stressed.

No doubt he'd had to repeatedly communicate with MH's operations centre in KUL, and probably with some urgency.

 

[mannej]

mannej, if MH breached curfew without authority, it will be heavily fined.

This happened to JQ one night and was eventually reported by the media:

Jetstar Fined $148,500 For Breach Of Sydney Airport Curfew

I am aware of the heavy fines, however it does become a case of which is cheaper, delaying the aircraft and having it out of position, or copping the fine and recovering the time and cost.
The information provided by the ATC transcript isn't 100% clear if dispensation was granted or not. I am sure Markis​ would be able to clear it up.

 

[erkpod]

If ATC knows that the aircraft is going to break SYD's curfew & they haven't been advised that a dispensation hasn't been authorised, is it up to ATC to deny a request to take off?

 

[Joshua]

If ATC knows that the aircraft is going to break SYD's curfew & they haven't been advised that a dispensation hasn't been authorised, is it up to ATC to deny a request to take off?

I am absolutely no expert but I don't believe they're in any position to police any rules, simply to advise dispensation hasn't been granted. At least on arrivals if the captain advises they'll be landing... they're landing (regular considerations aside).

 

[Mal]

I am absolutely no expert but I don't believe they're in any position to police any rules, simply to advise dispensation hasn't been granted. At least on arrivals if the captain advises they'll be landing... they're landing (regular considerations aside).

Yep. My understanding too. But even at $150k fine it is probably cheaper than staying in Sydney overnight...b

 

[Mal]

Not many granted this year in Sydney (up to at least beginning of june)... Very rare occurrences.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/av...ews/CurfewDispensationReports/2013/index.aspx

 

[markis10]

I am aware of the heavy fines, however it does become a case of which is cheaper, delaying the aircraft and having it out of position, or copping the fine and recovering the time and cost.
The information provided by the ATC transcript isn't 100% clear if dispensation was granted or not. I am sure Markis​ would be able to clear it up.

ATC would have been advised if there was a dispensation, there is a hotline to the relevant person as the delegated authority.

If ATC knows that the aircraft is going to break SYD's curfew & they haven't been advised that a dispensation hasn't been authorised, is it up to ATC to deny a request to take off?

No, ATC never have the power to deny an aircraft captain should they decide its in the best interests of his passengers, they can advise the captain they are clear from other obstacles for takeoff but not clear from repercussions of their actions. Having said that, it's very rare to see aggrogancy in the coughpit, most have learned the lessons of the Tenerife disaster.

 

[Melburnian1]

So that we don't have to wait until the Parliamentary report is published, perhaps markis10, serfty or some other well connected AFF moderator or member could make some discreet enquiries to ascertain whether or not a dispensation was actually granted.

I can only repeat what I heard, which naturally does not include any exchanges between MH's operations centre and the delegate in Canberra or Sydney who considers curfew dispensation requests.

 

[Simo]

We will probably only ever speculate to the issue and why it was granted.

 

[Mal]

We will probably only ever speculate to the issue and why it was granted.

Nope. It will be tabled in parliament for public perusal and contain full details.

But we don't know if it never requested or if the pilot was confused. That won't be tabled anywhere but the fine probably will

 

[markis10]

I am aware of the heavy fines, however it does become a case of which is cheaper, delaying the aircraft and having it out of position, or copping the fine and recovering the time and cost.
The information provided by the ATC transcript isn't 100% clear if dispensation was granted or not. I am sure Markis​ would be able to clear it up.

If ATC knows that the aircraft is going to break SYD's curfew & they haven't been advised that a dispensation hasn't been authorised, is it up to ATC to deny a request to take off?

So that we don't have to wait until the Parliamentary report is published, perhaps markis10, serfty or some other well connected AFF moderator or member could make some discreet enquiries to ascertain whether or not a dispensation was actually granted.

I can only repeat what I heard, which naturally does not include any exchanges between MH's operations centre and the delegate in Canberra or Sydney who considers curfew dispensation requests.

You could always tweet Sydney airport, it would be interesting to see the answer given the possible sensitivity on the subject, yet transparency needs to be maintained!

 

[mannej]

Is ATC made aware of any dispensations, or do they need to contact someone to find out?

It would seem that if they are made aware of it, their dialogue seems to indicate there was none.

However I am no expert on this matter

 

[markis10]

It's normally ATC that is the delegate.