Bali and the death penalty

[oz_mark]

Anyway I would be interested to know how those who do travel to Bali ( and plent of Aussies do so) Reconcile the treatment of those in prison there with their own expectations of decency and human rights. And stil feel it's a good idea to go.

I have answered the question and said I have no issue in going there. When I travel overseas I do so in the knowledge of local law and custom.

The fact that you refuse to state whether or not you impose your moral standards on decisions on whether you visit other countries is quite telling.

 

[medhead]

As I thinking of a similar post directing people back to the topic. I'm not so concerned about the death penalty. But the outcome of the case is bizarre. The granny has been (allegedly) blackmailed into this act. The prosecutor apparently accepted that defence and recommended a lessor gaol term. But then doesn't seem to have gone after the blackmailer to any extent.

Then the judges have rejected both the defence (it seems) and also the prosecution cases, ruling that the grandma didn't cooperated and did not admit ownership. Despite the prosecutor being quoted that she did cooperation and did admit to owning the drugs.

 

[Blinky]

In answer to your question, I don't reconcile it. I have no issues above and beyond any other countries and their treatment of people. I don't feel Bali/Indonesia is especially bad and the death penalty applies in other countries to which I am happy to travel also.

My position as well. I don't particularly like the gun laws and capital punishment in the US. I can't wait to visit again. The OP might say I lack a moral compass. Rather, I pick my fights.

 

[Deleted member]

I have answered the question and said I have no issue in going there. When I travel overseas I do so in the knowledge of local law and custom.

The fact that you refuse to state whether or not you impose your moral standards on decisions on whether you visit other countries is quite telling.

Ah BUT I did put myposition: I won't travel to Bali ( or anywhere in Indonesia for that matter) as myown small protest against the death penalty. While me withholding my meagertravel budget from Indonesia makes no difference. It at least is a moral standfor me ( and I suspect a number of others)
and the discussion is NOT ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES . stick to the topic

But yes you did provide the only real answer so far (apologies to you)

 

[casanovawa]

I said plainly that i have no problem with it, and that those people in the drug trade who like to profit off others misery often deserve harsh treatment... Long as you know the rules, you choose to break them you wear the consequences...

I'm not opposed to the death penalty for a range of crimes so the only place on moral grounds i would definitely rule out at the moment is probably North Korea because its run by a bunch of nutjobs... There are a few places in the middle east that are not high on my list of places to go to, but seeing as i have stamps from Israel in my passport and they are happy to discriminate against me because of it, it rather removes any need for wrestling with my conscience... I also chose not to visit Zimbabwe whilst in Africa...

 

[777]

Anyway I would be interested to know how those who do travel to Bali ( and plent of Aussies do so) Reconcile the treatment of those in prison there with their own expectations of decency and human rights. And stil feel it's a good idea to go.

Can we reference our own country? We live in a country that regularly detains people, including children, who have committed no crime in circumstances that lead to suicide, self mutilation, mental illness and more for open ended periods of years on end. Our country incarcerates people indefinitely on the basis of reviews that they are not allowed to see and unable to challenge.

What do they say about glass houses and all that?

 

[medhead]

Ah BUT I did put myposition: I won't travel to Bali ( or anywhere in Indonesia for that matter) as myown small protest against the death penalty. While me withholding my meagertravel budget from Indonesia makes no difference. It at least is a moral standfor me ( and I suspect a number of others)
and the discussion is NOT ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES . stick to the topic

Hang on, you asked about treatment in prison not the death penalty per se. These are 2 different things.

Anyway I would be interested to know how those who do travel to Bali ( and plent of Aussies do so) Reconcile the treatment of those in prison there with their own expectations of decency and human rights. And stil feel it's a good idea to go.

 

[wingspan]

Anyway I would be interested to know how those who do travel to Bali ( and plent of Aussies do so) Reconcile the treatment of those in prison there with their own expectations of decency and human rights. And stil feel it's a good idea to go.

I guess in the same way that I reconcile the disgraceful state of (to pick one example from many) marriage equality in Australia with my own expectations of decency and human rights: put up with it because it's only one negative aspect of the culture and there are many other positives.

*Note I've not actually been to Indonesia but I would love to go.

 

[Pushka]

Any way , as far as I can see none has addressed the actual question. but rtaher rawn comparisons, with other countries etc. so here is the question again


Anyway I would be interested to know how those who do travel to Bali ( and plent of Aussies do so) Reconcile the treatment of those in prison there with their own expectations of decency and human rights. And stil feel it's a good idea to go.

answers that do not include refrences to other countries , religions or laws are not relevent

I too answered your question. I said that staying away from a country as a protest against the death penalty was pretty much meaningless.

I think the Australian Government treats refugees appallingly by taking so long to process them. I don't consider they've done anything illegal other than seek safety. People in prisons have committed a crime. One that potentially destroys other people's lives.

 

[N860CR]

I've just finished reading "Hotel Kerobokan" and "Snowing in Bali". Two great reads and I'd recommend them to anyone with an interest in cases such as this.

It would seem that a bribe wasn't paid to the right person in this instance.

 

[irv]

The drug issue is the reason I would not travel there coupled with various newspaper article of stitch ups by authorities. Would consider non tourist spots but just don't know if I would risk it.

I was in Bali last November and seriously stuggled to locate bogans. I didn't see anyone drinking VB. Euro's & Yanks outnumbered the Oi Oi Oi's. There were Bintang singlets for sale yes, but I saw more of these in shops in Noosa over Christmas. I was in fact completely surprised that bogan-Aussies were not everywhere, let along seemingly no where. So mark November down as possibly a good time to go to Bali, because it was very quiet. I've done quite a bit of SE Asia and I'd rate Bali as right up there in terms of beauty.

On the score (bad pun!) of drugs I was offered Cialis which I'm proud to admit I didn't actually know what it was. When I rejected that I was offered a few more things, all of which of course I rejected quite firmly and in Bahasa Indonesia of which I speak a reasonable amount of. My +1 was highly concerned about my unlocked surfboard cover at the airport, fearing a Corby incident. I must admit, when you see it just lying around the baggage carousel you do wonder and often take a quick peek inside, but overall I love Bali and infact probably rate it in my top 5 destinations worldwide really. So Medhead, you are missing out.

 

[Pushka]

The drug issue is the reason I would not travel there coupled with various newspaper article of stitch ups by authorities. Would consider non tourist spots but just don't know if I would risk it.

Well, it seems from this report its the tourists you need to avoid, not the Balinese. I'm just wondering what you feel you are risking? Stitch up? The people confessed to bringing in drugs. Well 'cept for Schappelle but that's a different story.

 

[Blinky]

I'm pretty certain that it's the Javanese who are pushing drugs in Bali.

 

[drron]

Luxury yacht is more appropriate. BTW I was going to say boat to the Mariniaes, but as you can see, I can't spell that well.




No, we can't reach such an understanding, really. I'm not boycotting any countries, just exploring the possibilities wrt long haul from Australia.

Still surely Argentina is pretty long haul

Now come on just admit it.You just love having an argument with me.

Now GPH on a sort of more serious note do you intend to visit Thailand,malaysia or vietnam.All have the death penalty for drug use,all have a reputation for prison conditions that a westerner would consider inhumane and all have had examples of corruption?
Though I do understand and respect your opinion.We all have inconsistencies in our behaviour though some who critiscise are quite blind to their own biases.

 

[casanovawa]

Doesn't matter who are pushing the drugs, just like down here its extremely unusual for someone to come and force drugs on you for free... That's not quite the way the model works... And as for stitch ups, they must be amazing at it when you see so many people having bags that were taped to them being removed, obviously caught quite unawares...

I doubt there would be 1 in 20 or 1 in 100 that are the genuine victims of this, if you keep a half decent eye on your bags like your suppose to anywhere you should be pretty right...

If you either courier or buy drugs up there or anywhere i'm happy for the book to be thrown at your dumb @ss....

Biggest risk to me is dodgy spirits being served, but i plan to take my own up there duty free and probably just have a drink or two in some reputable establishment... I just hope i can limit it to one or two and not have my uncontrallable aussie bogan break out and have ordered a dozen, or even a flagon of VB, before crowd surfing in just my under pants and an aussie flag yelling oi, oi, oi etc....

 

[trooper]

I can't answer the question..simply because I don't understand how a "moral stand" involving a matter of principle can be limited to ONE place. Any answer I give therefore would be full of questions of equivalence.. which the OP will not allow.

 

[medhead]

Now come on just admit it.You just love having an argument with me.

I actually didn't know about Japan and just thought you might have only thought about the obvious routes via SIN/ME and to USA. The same with South America, I wasn't sure. But the connections onwards are clearly rubbish. Perhaps I should have also mentioned South Africa but that seemed obvious, so despite my ignorance of capital punishment there, I just assumed they might still have it based on your post.


Now this looks like I'm still arguing, but I'm not

 

[Pushka]

I do think they should be naming the places where the methanol was served.

 

[drron]

As I thinking of a similar post directing people back to the topic. I'm not so concerned about the death penalty. But the outcome of the case is bizarre. The granny has been (allegedly) blackmailed into this act. The prosecutor apparently accepted that defence and recommended a lessor gaol term. But then doesn't seem to have gone after the blackmailer to any extent.

Then the judges have rejected both the defence (it seems) and also the prosecution cases, ruling that the grandma didn't cooperated and did not admit ownership. Despite the prosecutor being quoted that she did cooperation and did admit to owning the drugs.

I actually didn't know about Japan and just thought you might have only thought about the obvious routes via SIN/ME and to USA. The same with South America, I wasn't sure. But the connections onwards are clearly rubbish. Perhaps I should have also mentioned South Africa but that seemed obvious, so despite my ignorance of capital punishment there, I just assumed they might still have it based on your post.


Now this looks like I'm still arguing, but I'm not

But i enjoy arguing with you.

Now to your first post.this situation is actually not unusual with the Indonesian judicial system.Judges are not bound by the prosecution or defence and are allowed to question all witnesses-more like a coronial inquiry than a british type criminal case.It is based on the Dutch system.Quoted in the Corby thread-
Indonesian Legal System and Schapelle Corby - Saturday Extra - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I guess the judges decided 4.8KG of cocaine was a little extreme.
British housewife caught with $2.6M in cocaine could face death - CNN.com

Of interest I looked up the earlier reports of her trial.Initially the court was told she was unaware she was carrying drugs yet now she says she was forced to.
BBC News - Bali drug trial: Lindsay Sandiford 'had cocaine in suitcase'

The case of the fellow who she delivered the cocaine to has not yet been finalised.The others were charged with being in possession of weed,hence more lenient sentences.

 

[medhead]

Now to your first post.this situation is actually not unusual with the Indonesian judicial system.Judges are not bound by the prosecution or defence and are allowed to question all witnesses-more like a coronial inquiry than a british type criminal case.It is based on the Dutch system.Quoted in the Corby thread-
Indonesian Legal System and Schapelle Corby - Saturday Extra - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Yeah, very true. I'd expect in all/most legal systems the judges are of course expected to make their own judgement of the facts. I guess I was thinking along the lines of an agreed statement of facts.

I guess the judges decided 4.8KG of cocaine was a little extreme.
British housewife caught with $2.6M in cocaine could face death - CNN.com

Of interest I looked up the earlier reports of her trial.Initially the court was told she was unaware she was carrying drugs yet now she says she was forced to.
BBC News - Bali drug trial: Lindsay Sandiford 'had cocaine in suitcase'

I don't think the amount matters if there really is blackmail/extortion involved. Of course, the earlier reports add some information on that point. Still if she did lead them to the others why pretend she didn't know? She must have gone into the case having already grassed them up. A confusing story at this late stage.

The case of the fellow who she delivered the cocaine to has not yet been finalised.The others were charged with being in possession of weed,hence more lenient sentences.

The story I read suggested that he was looking at 15 years for possession. IF he is the ringleader/extortion action by threats I would have thought he'd be up for more.