Are some AFF members "blind" to the Foibles of their 'favorite' carrier?

[MarcB]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

People complain and complain and complain about QF and QFF yet continue to use/invest in it.

I know its the biggest airline and FF program in Australia but it irritates me how QF-centric this site is. So many endless threads outside the QFF forum on AFF from members who seem to think the only international route in the world is to LHR on QF.

I would suggest that what you might be referring to is criticism of QF, not necessarily complaining. No business is perfect, and just because people who fly QF are critical of some of the decisions they make or the product offering, doesn't need to automatically translate into them resolving to never fly QF again. It would be naïve for a consumer to believe that VA, SQ, AA etc won't have their own (albeit different, shortcomings). I'd suggest that many of the posters that have expressed criticisms of QF, but choose to continue to fly with them, have done so because they've tried other airlines and resolved that the grass is not all that greener on the other side. Just because it's newer or shinier doesn't translate to better.

 

[pat25d]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

So you fly Tiger then? I don't really disagree with the sentiment you are expressing but think the view that it's the cheapest flight or nothing a bit simplistic, schedule and comfort come into it too. If I've got an employee who had to get up before 6 to get a flight to Melbourne and is now on a 6:30 pm flight back I won't be begrudging them taking a flight that cost $20 more but means they get a "meal" and a drink on the way back. And I certainly won't be accusing them of trying to milk the system either.

He said value, not cost/price. There is a big difference.

 

[under the radar]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

i think the word "foibles" in the subject is pretty spot on. An unacknowledged factor here is simply that we all care about different things. I am constantly reading reports here where people are going over the top complaining about things that i personally regard as trivial. I don't have the energy in life to get worked up about a lot of the issues posted here but each to their own.

What i struggle with is the logic that says "because trivial thing a happened to me qantas/ virgin/ <insert airline name here> are a hopeless airline and i will never fly with them again" - more often than not the complaint and the larger analysis are completely unrelated. Just because you didn't like something or were slightly inconvenienced does not mean the whole operation is a shambles.

I have even less sympathy with a small subset of flyers here who seem to fly in order to be upset. They know that a particular airline does things in ways that they don't like, they keep flying them and then complain about it all the time. Really, that's got nothing to do with the airline and everything to do with the mindset of the person who is complaining.

Am i blind to foibles? Yes, probably a lot of the time because people are getting worked up about things that are well beyond my care threshold.

spot on '777'

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

He said value, not cost/price. There is a big difference.

Exactly right.

 

[burmans]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

He said value, not cost/price. There is a big difference.

Can't disagree with that statement but of course how you value something depends on your circumstance. The fact that Qantas (and indeed most airlines) have built business models with one basic underlying principle that business travellers value travel diffrently to leisure travellers however suggests that I am not alone in the belief that the factors used to value business travel are not the same as leisure travel

e.g.
business class fares vs economy. I've never been able to make this one stick but plenty of companies do alllow long haul business class travel on the basis that you need to be in a fit condition for work when you arrive. Leisure travellers tend to just suck it up, sleep in late etc.
flexibility, you pay more for flexibility, in general this is targetted at business travellers (leisure travellers in general are prepared to wear less flexibility)
schedule (when I have to get to a meeting I take the best fare cased on schedule, if I'm on leisure I'm generally prepared to be flexible and take the cheaper 11 am flight). Airlines are aware of this, which is why flights are more expensive at peak times
time of booking, once again long pre-purchase fares tend to be cheaper but (in general) business are not as able to book long ahead.

Airlines aren't doing this just because they think its a good idea, they KNOW it's a good idea and that business travellers ARE prepared to pay more in general because of their different perceptions of value. TonyHancok and JohnPhelan have suggested they don't value business and personal travel differently, fair enough but there is plenty of evidence that there are plenty of people who do.

 

[Mal Ware]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

Could it also be that there might actually be real satisfied customers! Shock, horror

There are plenty I am sure, I am one most of the time as well, however unlike some I don't look at Qantas through rose coloured spectacles like a certain group of people do here and I am sure that there are some who do it for Virgin or other airllines as well.
Good idea to create a new thread, not sure that the title needs to be in the form of a question though, there is no doubt that there is.

I think the word "foibles" in the subject is pretty spot on. An unacknowledged factor here is simply that we all care about different things. I am constantly reading reports here where people are going over the top complaining about things that i personally regard as trivial. I don't have the energy in life to get worked up about a lot of the issues posted here but each to their own.

What i struggle with is the logic that says "Because trivial thing A happened to me Qantas/ Virgin/ <insert airline name here> are a hopeless airline and i will never fly with them again" - more often than not the complaint and the larger analysis are completely unrelated. Just because you didn't like something or were slightly inconvenienced does not mean the whole operation is a shambles.

I have even less sympathy with a small subset of flyers here who seem to fly in order to be upset. They know that a particular airline does things in ways that they don't like, they keep flying them and then complain about it all the time. Really, that's got nothing to do with the airline and everything to do with the mindset of the person who is complaining.

Am i blind to foibles? Yes, probably a lot of the time because people are getting worked up about things that are well beyond my care threshold.

So in a nutshell, only if you deem something to be worthy of complaining about then it is okay to complain? There is a saying "Don't complain about the complainer".

What I find amusing is people who've been around for about 3 minutes making making comments about something from a previous era that demonstrate their ignorance of the history and context.

Ah that old chesnut. The old "your opinion could not possibly mean as much or more than mine because I joined an internet forum long before you did" type comment. hahaha Love it when they come out.

History and context? Isn't that what recording a blog is for?

I would suggest that what you might be referring to is criticism of QF, not necessarily complaining. No business is perfect, and just because people who fly QF are critical of some of the decisions they make or the product offering, doesn't need to automatically translate into them resolving to never fly QF again. It would be naïve for a consumer to believe that VA, SQ, AA etc won't have their own (albeit different, shortcomings). I'd suggest that many of the posters that have expressed criticisms of QF, but choose to continue to fly with them, have done so because they've tried other airlines and resolved that the grass is not all that greener on the other side. Just because it's newer or shinier doesn't translate to better.

Awesome post and summed it up perfectly.

 

[samh004]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

Ah that old chesnut. The old "your opinion could not possibly mean as much or more than mine because I joined an internet forum long before you did" type comment. hahaha Love it when they come out.

I think the point that was trying to be made was that you've seemingly joined a community only to turn around and stir the pot, and not really be a part of the community.

I'm not sure why anyone would bother doing that?

There are many diverse views on AFF, and a really welcoming community, that you're more than welcome to be a part of, but you seem intent to stir trouble with each post as if you don't really want to be a part of the community, which seems a little absurd.

 

[Sprucegoose]

People complain and complain and complain about QF and QFF yet continue to use/invest in it.

I know its the biggest airline and FF program in Australia but it irritates me how QF-centric this site is. So many endless threads outside the QFF forum on AFF from members who seem to think the only international route in the world is to LHR on QF.

That argument is old hat and perception is quite out of date.

As for complaints, we do because we want the product to be better not to belt it out of existence

Qantas dominates our aviation markets and the majority of participants here predominately fly Qantas.

So what!!

We reflect what we do and think. Irritating well build a bridge!

 

[777]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

So in a nutshell, only if you deem something to be worthy of complaining about then it is okay to complain? There is a saying "Don't complain about the complainer".

In a nutshell ... no.

Most complaints are part of a scenario where there are multiple sides to the story. They often the take the form of "why wasn't i given more benefit relative to everyone else on the flight" for example (eg seat selection, op-ups), or they are about circumstances that might be beyond the airline's control (eg. Weather or ATC delaying flights), or simply based on poor information (eg. Anyone has flown EuroBusiness class which is pretty much the same across all European airlines using it single out any one of them for being uniquely bad) and in a lot of cases the airlines in question is not particularly at fault or the incident doesn't justify the conclusion the person has reached.

People can complain as much as they like but just because someone has a complaint doesn't mean it's valid or proportional. Often the action or resolution that someone would have liked to have seen the airline take would have been at the expense of many others or at a massive cost disproportionate to the inconvenience suffered. Often it is as simple as the person making the complaint has a strong view that things should be done in a certain kind of way while many other passengers either dont care or actually prefer the way it is being done now.

So, yes, complain and critique as much as you like. By all means make it know where airlines have failed from your perspective.

But equally don't be surprised to find out that other people either have a different perspective or look at it from a broader view than what you do and rather than looking at your perspective in isolation actually think about how it might effect everyone else.

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

TonyHancok and JohnPhelan have suggested they don't value business and personal travel differently, fair enough but there is plenty of evidence that there are plenty of people who do.

It is a subtle difference but I actually said:

I seek the best value whether I am flying for business or for pleasure

It is about attitude. I encourage my employees to think about how they spend the company's money and get them to ask themselves "would I spend this if it were my money?".

As opposed to:

When I am paying myself value is a high priority, and question such as whether I pay $40 extra for a pretty average meal come into play, not really a factor when travelling with business if the company paying will allow me choice, the cost of that sandwich becomes $0 to me and is nullified as a factor.

I have an employee who traveled to Europe last week. I instructed him to fly Y+ instead of Y. He booked Y and didn't tell me until I was talking to him about seat selection. He couldn't see the value in the additional cost which was about $2k. I practically had to stand over him whilst he went online to book and pay for an exit row. He is a very bright, dedicated and conscientious employee and this is typical of his actions. He values the company money as if it was his own, he is humble and hard working. One day he will be a senior manager within our global organisation and will be a very good one. He will be the type of manager that people will want to work for....a rarity these days.

I am flying Y to Europe in February too, it is an unscheduled and unbudgeted trip, cost, in this case, is important. If this were a personal trip I would probably fly Y+. In both cases QF is my airline of choice....but to keep it on topic I give QF as much flak as I do praise......I think!!

 

[nlagalle]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

There are plenty I am sure, I am one most of the time as well, however unlike some I don't look at Qantas through rose coloured spectacles like a certain group of people do here and I am sure that there are some who do it for Virgin or other airllines as well.

Yet you fail to take in or ignore that the "some" have also complained in the past. However when they have an opposing view to yours, your trot out the fanboi line as your argument.

Ah that old chesnut. The old "your opinion could not possibly mean as much or more than mine because I joined an internet forum long before you did" type comment. hahaha Love it when they come out.

How about the fact that it has nothing to do with opinion, but have already stated on here previously where they have complained etc? You always ignore that fact. I'm probably guessing those "some" have complained more to Qantas than you have.

 

[harvyk]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

Ah that old chesnut. The old "your opinion could not possibly mean as much or more than mine because I joined an internet forum long before you did" type comment. hahaha Love it when they come out.

The thing is that it takes time to build credibility on an internet forum. Even if I don't agree with what you are saying, I am probably going to put more weight into what you say than a person who signed up yesterday, simply because I have seen a few of your posts around the place over the last few month...

There is something about this forum which does bring out the one post wonders and a few trolls. It could have something to do with the fact that certain news organisations love giving ppl an excuse to whinge about airlines (and they can't stop writing their opinion because certain news sites aren't bashing QF that day), it could be that the airlines are still trading on 1950's style images of luxury combined with a 21st century LCC style service, it could be jealousy from ppl who really can't afford to fly full stop, let alone every second weekend like some of us do (and the pointy end is simply something they walked past to get to the back row of Y on their one and only flight).

And every so often ppl post up things in such forums which are just plain wrong and / or does not match with the experiences of 99% of other people, or more importantly they have made a few posts and each one is exactly opposite to my experiences of the same thing, I do then start to wonder if their experiences of other things are really something I should listen to.

 

[JohnPhelan]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

business class fares vs economy. I've never been able to make this one stick but plenty of companies do alllow long haul business class travel on the basis that you need to be in a fit condition for work when you arrive. Leisure travellers tend to just suck it up, sleep in late etc.

TonyHancok and JohnPhelan have suggested they don't value business and personal travel differently, fair enough but there is plenty of evidence that there are plenty of people who do.

I recall, a few years back, I had a member of my team who was new to working in a role where she was required to do a substantial amount of overseas travel. I had to virtually force her to book J, rather than Y. (In fact, I changed some of her bookings myself to make sure she was going to be in J!) I explained to her that there were two reasons for this:

1. to ensure that she was well-rested and in a good frame of mind to work when she reached her destination
2. because I/the company valued her work, and valued her as an individual. Therefore, her comfort was valued, too, and that mattered to me. (I told her that she should value herself more highly than to cram herself into Y for long haul flights).

In relation to the value of business travel versus personal travel - my attitude has always been that I don't expect my organisation to treat me in a better way than I treat myself. If I fly J when I'm paying (which I do), I expect that my organisation will fly me J when it is paying. I don't expect it to treat me better - or worse - than I treat myself.

If I was to fly in a more expensive class, stay at a better hotel, or rent a more expensive car because the company is paying, then I would consider that to be unethical, and as Tony Hancock said, "milking" the company. I wouldn't want someone with that attitude working for me.

 

[cmon0005]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

I'm not blinded by anything, I choose to fly Qantas & OW airlines because in general they're far superior to anything else out there, their FF is arguably the best in the industry, I feel valued even as a Gold FF (I've had op-ups, 100% points upgrade success rate.etc), they're the only full service premium carrier in Australia (by definition not by claim) I don't like to travel on budget carriers where possible, I value my time and like efficiency, Qantas are good at those 2 things.
Also I like to support jobs in this country and considering Qantas have more than 30,000 employees here, they're a big employer so I know that my flying will in a small way contribute to peoples lives here.

Saying that I am not stupid, and if I were to see a $10k business seat on QF to say HNL on an old 767 I wouldn't just book it because it was QF, I would shop around to find another carrier who can do it for less and with skybed.

 

[under the radar]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

spot on '777'

gee thanks for the 'likes' :shock: .still all the credit goes to '777' for constructing such a concise post.. i was just showing my support/agreement .. (apparently 'blindly' )

 

[medhead]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

I think the point that was trying to be made was that you've seemingly joined a community only to turn around and stir the pot, and not really be a part of the community.

I'm not sure why anyone would bother doing that?

There are many diverse views on AFF, and a really welcoming community, that you're more than welcome to be a part of, but you seem intent to stir trouble with each post as if you don't really want to be a part of the community, which seems a little absurd.

The other point that flew right over the top of heads is that they have jumped to a wrong and ludicrous conclusion based on about 23% of what was written, by me, around the subject. This is a direct result of taking one or two blogs out of that context and seemingly trying to insert it into their context. Not to mention that that wrong opinion was expressed in an insulting way.



I also didn't mention the "in" joke that Tony Hancock was making, because that is not really relevant to people who are not "in" to get it. But it is worth noting that there was an "in" joke now in the hope that people making comments might realise they don't have the full story.

 

[lovestotravel]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

Do I need to remind anyone here how much I don't like Virgin ?

 

[markis10]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

Do I need to remind anyone here how much I don't like Virgin ?

Feel free, everyone is entitled to express their opinion which is neither right or wrong, its just an opinion about the choices they have a right to make!

For the record I just booked a Jetstar flight that does not involve a visit to a F lounge - someone get me my meds :shock:

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

For the record I just booked a Jetstar flight that does not involve a visit to a F lounge - someone get me my meds :shock:

Self flagellation?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: First refurbished 767 enters service end of the month

LOL, sorry but this thread is about being blind to a favourite carrier, you are not really in a position to talk about opposing views.

75+ flights, one priority boarding fail.

oh you are still bringing that up? is it that hard for you to believe??? i did point out that the time it didn't really work i did complain and i did receive a response with an apology. I also pointed out that PB on virgin failed once as well and although not as many flights were with virgin, to me they are on an equal par. so if you don't believe me fine, but get off your high horse about shills. I am not one. as i pointed out which you again ignored, i have complained to Qantas numerous times in the past about different things, so i certainly don't have "rose coloured glasses" that you seem to think I have.

Yep, you are definitely not a supporter of any particular airline.

Considering i have earned Platinum on Virgin as well i think you could say although my preference is Qantas, I still fly both carriers a lot. In fact I flew both on Tuesday.

Anywho, it is clear there will always be shills and fanbois for certain airlines and that of course influences their posting, what makes me laugh is, when you see it, plain as day and then talk about it, you are called a hater of that airline or told to "use another carrier" as though it is as simple as shopping at coles instead of woolies when you have spent a year or two building up status.

And there will always be the others who can only bring negativity into a conversation or topic.. I don't think i have seen you have one positive comment yet.. It's all negative which is why people don't hold your comments in any regard, not to mention your attacks towards other members (which usually proves you have no solid argument).