Budget 2012, travel losers

[wafliron]

Well your thoughts disagree with everything I read in the financial press.And with all due respect what you have quoted from the Parliamentary Library is merely the Government excusing their conduct.As said by former NSW Premier Askin-If you are going to have an inquiry first pick your judge.

I'm certainly not saying everyone agrees with the view that the NBN should be on-balance-sheet - there certainly are voices of dissent. But you have to consider the biases of those with an opinion (on both sides). Re the advice from the Parliamentary Library, just like anything else you have to consider whether that is biased, but to simply write it off without considering what it says is really is putting the blinkers on. Not only is the Parliamentary Library part of the bureaucracy, not the government, that research note is also extremely comprehensive, the logic is well explained, it is references, etc - it's a much more believable opinion than anything else I've read. If you haven't read it in full, I suggest that you do.

Maybe you can explain to me why the Government has to borrow an extra 50 billion to cover a 1.5 billion surplus? Also why if so much has been cut from spending do the budget papers reveal that total government expenditure is rising 2.6 billion dollars next financial year?

I'm not sure - but this doesn't have anything to do with whether the NBN should be off-balance-sheet or on-balance-sheet.

First I will apologise to wafliron. He is correct the Government is doing nothing that is illegal in keeping the NBN and Green company project off the balance sheet.

Thank-you for acknowledging that (re the NBN at least - I don't know much about the Green Loans project)...

However my basic point is unchanged.A listed company can not do the same thing.If for example Telstra was rolling out the NBN it would have to disclose all its spend on that roll out.Disclosure laws also mean it has to account for it publicly. So this is a case of the Government saying to private enterprise-Do what I say,not what I do.

...however I have to add that this part of your comment remains incorrect. The government is applying the same accounting standards any private company would (as per the research note I quoted). If Telstra built the NBN, spent $10b on it this year, and tried to claim a $10b expense (immediate tax deduction) the ATO would tear them a new one.

Beyond the above final comments I'll stay away from this issue from here on, as I don't want to drag this thread waaay off-topic as I managed to last time the NBN came up.

I do however disagree on the electoral importance of the National Apology and Kyoto. Those who truly cared about these issues (voters to whom it was a vote-changer) were/are already ALP voters. I don't believe that those issues change governments. (not between ALP and Coalition anyway... Perhaps between ALP and Greens. ) personally - I think the relevance to voters of these issues is over-stated.

I agree that these issues are/were probably not a big deal to swinging voters - but that's exactly why I regarded Rudd's actions on them as being so important. For the first time in a long time it seemed like we had a leader willing to do things simply because they were the right things to do, not just because they would win votes, which I think most people will acknowledge is a big problem with both sides of modern politics.

The fact that Rudd backed down on the CPRS really came back to bite him though - that was the beginning of his end. I often wonder how different our political landscape would look if he'd gone to a double-dissolution election over the issue - I'm pretty confident Labour would have won that election, and most likely wouldn't be in horrible mess they're in now as a result.

But paradoxically in some instances more centrist types are dominant - Victoria comes to mind - there didn't seem to very much difference when government changed from one party to the other.

Sure there is - we went from a relatively competent but massively corrupt Labour government to a relatively honest (as far as I can tell) but massively incompetent Coalition government

Anyway - I just pray that the coalition are lying, because if they follow through on all the current "promises" we will be looking back at this time a little more fondly than we would imagine.

100% agree on this one. The current government is doing a pretty terrible job - even I, as a more left-leaning voter, can admit that.

But the alternative is even scarier - the current opposition have demonstrated over and over again that they're equally incompetent - perhaps even more so - on the issue of economic management. Huge costing holes in their proposed policies (yes, those costing holes are there, even if they're not as big as the $70b figure the Labour government is trumpeting), wanting to tear down sensible policy like the Mining Tax, Hockey wanting to regulate how banks set their mortgage rates (straight out of a socialist textbook), etc, etc. Not to mention ultra-conservative on social issues - far more conservative than the average of the Australian electorate.

All the stimulus packages do is kick the can further down the road.For example Hardly Normal had a big spike in sales and profitability with the original cash splash then.But as was predicted by some economists that just brought forward spending so the demand drops later-as it has done with Hardly Normal.

Agree with you on the cash handouts, but most of the rest of the stimulus package was very successful - bank guarantee, NBN, BER (despite a few issues - and yes, it was only a few - with it), etc. The government really can't win - people say they want stimulus to be based around "investment for the future", and when they deliver on this the same people start complaining about it being a waste of money.

Wayne Swan should really be known as the World's luckiest Treasurer.

That's really not fair - no doubt Australia has had a large share of luck over the past five years, but there's also wide-spread acknowledgement amongst economists on both sides of the political spectrum that the actions Swan et al took during the GFC played a major role in bringing us through it with a relatively intact economy.

 

[drron]

Well I must take issue with you.The NBN was an election promise from Kevin 07 so not part of the stimulus package.Now many of his promises-eg increased foreign aid and defence spending are not coming to pass-?non core promises.
The BER had a lot of problems not just a few.Just talk to a few small builders-they were basically excluded but in this area the ones I know unaminously agree all projects could have been done cheaper.Then there is the future benefit-reduplicating school tuckshops or assembly halls really dont do much for future productivity.
I will agree the bank quarantee was a good measure.
As to being lucky surely the fact that the previous 4 years had seen the 4 largest budget surpluses that Australia has had + the fact that money had been invested in a Future Fund makes him incredibly lucky.
As to escaped relatively intact you should live in regional Australia-an awful lot of bussinesses have gone to the wall,bankruptcies are at record levels.Then of course our sharemarket is still down 30% from pre GFC levels which means many have lost out on their super funds.

Again one of the best performing world economies did not have any stimulus-sure they had a really hard time for a year or two but now bounding ahead in Iceland as I said.
In Europe the strongest economy is by all accounts Germany-it had the smallest stimulus package,delivered only in 2009/10 and when it was announced the plan for paying it back was also announced hence improving business confidence-much more so than here.
Why Germany

Germany's economy: How very stimulating | The Economist

Unfortunately we still have to wait and see what the final result of our stimulus package really is.

 

[rechoboam]

The second reasoning behind tax and spend to stimulate the economy (not so much "pump priming") is the Marginal Propensity to Consume. In short - every dollar that is spent by government goes into the economy, whereas a dollar of tax saving is partially consumed by savings, and only a percentage goes directly into spending.

Of course this ignores the benefits of saving, availability of capital, incentives to earn etc etc.

Whoa...stop right there.
I would say a very large proportion of government spending goes into waste rather than the economy.

I will never be convinced that the government spending more and more can ever be better than normal human beings deciding how to spend their own money. It isn't the government's money, it is ours. For example if it wasn't for my tax bill and import duties, LCT etc I can assure you I would have made a Porsche dealer and his dependents happy at some point or points.

 

[dfcatch]

Whoa...stop right there.
I would say a very large proportion of government spending goes into waste rather than the economy.

I will never be convinced that the government spending more and more can ever be better than normal human beings deciding how to spend their own money. It isn't the government's money, it is ours. For example if it wasn't for my tax bill and import duties, LCT etc I can assure you I would have made a Porsche dealer and his dependents happy at some point or points.

Well - yes - I agree with your exact sentiment.

However I was just highlighting the "theory" behind tax and spend and why its proponents argue it is a better strategy than a tax cut.

 

[Moody]

Whoa...stop right there.
I would say a very large proportion of government spending goes into waste rather than the economy.

I will never be convinced that the government spending more and more can ever be better than normal human beings deciding how to spend their own money. It isn't the government's money, it is ours. For example if it wasn't for my tax bill and import duties, LCT etc I can assure you I would have made a Porsche dealer and his dependents happy at some point or points.

So the government "wastes" money on school halls, home insulation, etc whilst you spend it "wisely" on a new Porsche.

Priceless!

 

[cove]

"Marginal propensity to consume"?? Was that Samuelson for first year Economics at Uni??
I came to the conclusion that people prefer to spend their own money in their own way.
Smaller Government is urgently required so that we avoid them wasting the tax take.

 

[dfcatch]

"Marginal propensity to consume"?? Was that Samuelson for first year Economics at Uni??
I came to the conclusion that people prefer to spend their own money in their own way.
Smaller Government is urgently required so that we avoid them wasting the tax take.

I didn't say I agreed with it, just that it's the argument for tax and spend. And yeah, Economics 101 . But in fairness, I respect the argument, I just don't agree once I consider the implications.

And Moody - I think the point is that "it's my money", I can choose to spend it however I wish (Porsche, prostitutes, World Vision etc).

So yes - someone is well within their rights to consider duplicated school halls a waste of their hard-earned taxes which they have toiled for.

And as far as economic activity goes, it doesn't matter whether the government spends the dollar on X, or the individual spends it on Y... Either action stimulates the economy.

So you can argue whether tax-and-spend or tax cuts produce a more stimulating outcome, but I concur most people that I come into contact with prefer to make their own spending choices - Porsche or otherwise.

 

[medhead]

A quote is in order, no doubt mid-quote and without attribution:

'most of my money went on women and booze, the rest I wasted'

Or words to that effect.


Sent from the Throne

 

[rechoboam]

So the government "wastes" money on school halls, home insulation, etc whilst you spend it "wisely" on a new Porsche.

Priceless!

Yes, I think the money was wasted on school "halls" and the insulation fiasco which distorted incentives, promoted bad practice and put honest people out of business. If someone thinks that sort of spending is so good I suggest they volunteer to pay my share and we can all be happy!

Why is it unwise to spend it on a new Porsche? I have friends who think driving a Kia would be a horrible wasteful thing to do and that only bicycles don't waste resources. Who gets to decide - me, you, them? In a sensible economic environment we could each choose for ourselves. And if I want to re-insulate my house I can pay for that, and if I want my kids' school to build a million-dollar sunshade I can pass the hat around.

 

[medhead]

Yes, I think the money was wasted on school "halls" and the insulation fiasco which distorted incentives, promoted bad practice and put honest people out of business. If someone thinks that sort of spending is so good I suggest they volunteer to pay my share and we can all be happy!

The key question is who do you blame for the so-called waste? To date the investigations have shown that the real waste only limited to projects administered by the NSW and Victoria State education departments. The reports I've seen say private schools got proper value for money.

In any case, my children's school got a new sports hall, that was really needed and it gets them indoors during the Adelaide summer. That hall also provides a gym to the local community. So I think that it was a valuable use of the money.

 

[Isochronous]

So the government "wastes" money on school halls, home insulation, etc whilst you spend it "wisely" on a new Porsche.

Priceless!

The insulantion scheme killed people and school halls were built in schools that closed a year later, halls that weren't the correct dimensions for the school, and those that may have been built apporpriately were built at inflated prices.

Your money is your money. It doesn't belong to the government. Politicians and bureaucrats have no right to steal it from you through taxation beyond the minimum needed to fund non-market-producable goods/services because they arrogantly believe they know better.

 

[rechoboam]

The key question is who do you blame for the so-called waste? To date the investigations have shown that the real waste only limited to projects administered by the NSW and Victoria State education departments. The reports I've seen say private schools got proper value for money.

In any case, my children's school got a new sports hall, that was really needed and it gets them indoors during the Adelaide summer. That hall also provides a gym to the local community. So I think that it was a valuable use of the money.

I didn't know the Constitution required the federal government to provide gyms to local communities but nothing would surprise me these days.

 

[straitman]

The key question is who do you blame for the so-called waste? To date the investigations have shown that the real waste only limited to projects administered by the NSW and Victoria State education departments. The reports I've seen say private schools got proper value for money.

The insulantion scheme killed people and school halls were built in schools that closed a year later, halls that weren't the correct dimensions for the school, and those that may have been built apporpriately were built at inflated prices.

If looking for the waste you should come and have a look around Gippsland and Latrobe Valley.

 

[Moody]

The insulantion scheme killed people and school halls were built in schools that closed a year later, halls that weren't the correct dimensions for the school, and those that may have been built apporpriately were built at inflated prices.

I would argue that unscrupulous operators with slack or non-existent safety standards led to 4 deaths (I believe). Whan I decided (in the early '90s) that my home really could do with some insulation, I shopped around for the cheapest R3.5 batts I could find and then installed them myself. I used a face mask and gloves, but didn't turn my electricity off as I probably should of. I also had frequent beer breaks (it was hot up there) which was obviously good and bad.

If my example was repeated across the nation I'm sure there would have been significant numbers of "misadventures" - far more than having professionals perform insulations. But that is where the recent scheme failed - in the attempt to make it a successful stimulant the rebate was too generous. That appealed to the greedy and unprincipled in our society (of which we have plenty) and the government was caught unprepared.

But you may as well argue that the ill-conceived national roads scheme kills hundreds of people a year and should be scrapped as a tree-hugging socialist policy failure. Nothing's ever perfect, is it?

As for inflated school hall costs - meh. My kid's school didn't need a hall so had some renovations done, replaced a couple of demountables with new classroms, and then had spare money for environment and sustainabilty projects. I am sure there are examples of the education department or individual schools not getting the best outcome for the money, but they didn't happen at my school.

Your money is your money. It doesn't belong to the government. Politicians and bureaucrats have no right to steal it from you through taxation beyond the minimum needed to fund non-market-producable goods/services because they arrogantly believe they know better.

If you don't like democratic governments then why don't you go live in a country that has done away with them. I can give you a few names if you like.

 

[Isochronous]

If you don't like democraic governments then why don't you go live in a country that has done away with them. I can give you a few names if you like.

Strawman.

If you think governments are such wise spenders, you can always send the ATO a cheque for an amount higher than your tax assessment.

 

[Moody]

Strawman.

If you think governments are such wise spenders, you can always send the ATO a cheque for an amount higher than your tax assessment.

"Strawman". Is that supposed to be an insult?? I know - it's so hard to say what you think without being censored on this board, but have no fear - you are on the right side of the argument.

I have no problems with paying my share of tax and hope that others do too. But your statement "Your money is your money. It doesn't belong to the government" seems to be at odds with civilised society, so why don't you go find a place that backs up this stance. Any time you're ready.

 

[medhead]

I didn't know the Constitution required the federal government to provide gyms to local communities but nothing would surprise me these days.

Oh good, my federally collected taxes can stop funding education of any type then. Hopefully, that helps you realise the stupidity of this statement.

If looking for the waste you should come and have a look around Gippsland and Latrobe Valley.

Want you're going to show me state government schools? If so refer back to my post. It is not the Commonwealth government's fault if the state government are firkin useless. That being exactly my point, try point the finger at the people who caused the problem; vote out your useless state government. :shock: or does politics prevent people doing the correct thing. :shock:

 

[medhead]

I would argue that unscrupulous operators with slack or non-existent safety standards led to 4 deaths (I believe).

Exactly! But then it must be the fault of the commonwealth government that state government's/local council's are incapable of enforcing existing building standards and existing OHS regulations, at least when it suits the political views of people.

 

[drron]

Oh good, my federally collected taxes can stop funding education of any type then. Hopefully, that helps you realise the stupidity of this statement.



Want you're going to show me state government schools? If so refer back to my post. It is not the Commonwealth government's fault if the state government are firkin useless. That being exactly my point, try point the finger at the people who caused the problem; vote out your useless state government. :shock: or does politics prevent people doing the correct thing. :shock:

Problem.ALL projects had to be submitted to the Commonwealth Government for approval.They were in charge and then inspected the jobs.
I found it interesting that in their review was this finding in the QLD governments BER website-

Queensland was also featured in the report as the only state with a full range of public works expertise and this state can also claim to have all the attributes of an informed buyer of capital works projects

.

Also much is made of the fact that Price Waterhouse signed off on the BER program but again from the QLD website-

PwC has examined two BER projects in Queensland, Mt Crosby State School and Glenore Grove State School, reviewing DET's implementation of the BER guidelines.
The examination also reviewed the Department's implementation of the BER program in school communities where the school was identified for temporary closure and investigated complaints and concerns from two private citizens about the overall BER program.
The review found that overall, the program was delivering value for money and providing modern education facilities for Queensland schools and communities and the program continues to have a positive impact on the state's economy through job creation in the construction industry

.

So a complete examination of 2 schools out of 1200.Hmmm.Could those have been selected?Hmmm.

Of course once again did this only bring forward expenditure-
Building industry backlash over budget

Wilhelm Harnisch, CEO of Master Builders Australia said: “Business confidence is severely lacking in the building and construction industry. The industry faces a stalled housing recovery and commercial builders are experiencing a severe slow down following the BER Program

Just like the original cash splash-a very temporary measure.Following up on those schemes was not thought through.

 

[cove]

With a real live "Greek Tragedy" about to play out we need to batten down the hatches or Wayne's latest budget and its forecasts may once again be toilet paper use only.