Ask The Pilot

[Must...Fly!]

The full report is here http://www.lebcaa.com/pdfs/Final Investigation Report ET 409.pdf

Sad reading at best. The airline is in dream land. There is nothing in this to show anything other than loss of control.

I was surprised to see that the captain had 757/767 experience as an FO. He shouldn't have been out of his depth, but that's all I can see. Calling for the autopilot, when the aircraft was over 60 degrees angle of bank is basically giving up...and it will never engage in those circumstances anyway.

The FO had 600 hours TOTAL. I don't care whether he graduated first or tenth on course...at that level of experience, no matter what is happening in the other seat, he's little more than a passenger. He isn't going to take over, and he probably couldn't fix things anyway.

Similar in many ways to AF447. Inappropriate control inputs, and a perfectly healthy aircraft crashes.

Thanks jb747, insightful as always. More or less my thoughts. I read through some of the final report you provided as well, the description of the flight is very sombre reading. I can only imagine what it must have been like to be in the passenger cabin at the time.

 

[jb747]

Fuel flow?

The 3 remaining engines will burn around 15% more fuel than the total flow that you had with four engines running. You won't be able to go as high as previously, and you've now got a very large circular speed brake under one wing....drag.

 

[SFSC]

I have enjoyed reading this thread very much. Thanks jb747. At last, I have a question. Looking at the Lebanon Ministry of Public Works and Transport ET409 report, what event in the sequence would normally result in an investigation and report (say in this country) even if successful recovery took place after the event?

 

[QF WP]

vk6ksj, nice to see you join up and post.

 

[jb747]

Looking at the Lebanon Ministry of Public Works and Transport ET409 report, what event in the sequence would normally result in an investigation and report (say in this country) even if successful recovery took place after the event?

In this event, if they'd recovered, the world most likely would never have heard of it.

Here, I'd expect the companies and CASA to be very interested. The roll and pitch excursions are most likely symptoms of disorientation. Aviation safety is, in large part, based upon people being willing to self report their mistakes. Mistakes that go unreported will be repeated by somebody else, perhaps with a less positive outcome. But, this also requires that the companies' have a sound safety system. Reports should be passed on the CASA/ATSB in accordance with a well defined protocol (I think you'll find that this, rather than individual issues, is what got Tiger into trouble). Managers have to realised that punishing people who have self reported is counter productive (it will solve the report problem though, as nobody will make any).

 

[markis10]

I noticed SMH have picked up on this cool footage, taking out the horizontal reference makes for interesting viewing:

[video=youtube_share;mMvLuUJFHYk]http://youtu.be/mMvLuUJFHYk[/video]

 

[spudseamus]

yep jb747 no bus drivers there !!! no wonder my insides get turned over sometimes !! ahhh well any landing you walk away from is a good one huh!

 

[ckck]

ref: Crosswind Landings during a storm

Pilots sure do earn their money.

ck

 

[Must...Fly!]

The Condor approach looks...interesting!

 

[harvyk]

This is more an ATC question, is a controller assigned a piece of airspace who then monitors all planes in that airspace, or would there potentially be a couple of controller looking after an airspace?

Also when planes report bad weather do they report that back to the controllers who then repeats it for planes in the area \ entering the area, or is it simply a board cast for all planes who are tuned into the frequency. If it is a simply board cast to all planes tuned into that frequency, is it on the one assigned to planes in the area by ATC, or is it on a special frequency? (I've heard most planes will be tuned into 121.5 as well as ATC frequency)

 

[jb747]

The Condor approach looks...interesting!

There's a couple that are a bit suspect. Most important thing in crosswind approaches is making sure you don't let the aircraft go downwind of the centreline. At the old Hong Kong, that was one of the main causes of the many pod scrapes that happened there.

Look at the pitch attitudes. The aircraft really shouldn't be nose down, but a number seem to be quite a way down. That's indicative of too much speed.

 

[jb747]

Also when planes report bad weather do they report that back to the controllers who then repeats it for planes in the area \ entering the area, or is it simply a board cast for all planes who are tuned into the frequency. If it is a simply broadcast to all planes tuned into that frequency, is it on the one assigned to planes in the area by ATC, or is it on a special frequency? (I've heard most planes will be tuned into 121.5 as well as ATC frequency)

121.5 shouldn't be used for any normal communications. Having said that, some particular nationalities seem to think it's a great chatter frequency.

ATC response to any reports of turbulence/weather varies dramatically around the world. Some will pass on reports without being asked, others never offer any info.

Storms can normally readily be avoided, though normally it's up to the aircraft to sort out the track he wants and to then arrange that with the controllers. Where some levels are rough, ATC might offer a level that is known to be smooth....and sometimes you just have to live with it.

 

[markis10]

This is more an ATC question, is a controller assigned a piece of airspace who then monitors all planes in that airspace, or would there potentially be a couple of controller looking after an airspace?

Also when planes report bad weather do they report that back to the controllers who then repeats it for planes in the area \ entering the area, or is it simply a board cast for all planes who are tuned into the frequency. If it is a simply board cast to all planes tuned into that frequency, is it on the one assigned to planes in the area by ATC, or is it on a special frequency? (I've heard most planes will be tuned into 121.5 as well as ATC frequency)

Controllers are assigned a sector that is usually a defined piece of airspace with vertical and horizontal limits, and there will often be two working, one radar and one procedural (doing paperwork) in many countries, with the paperwork picking up the slack should the radar fail or where there is no radar coverage.

Some countries divide airspace over the same ground by altitude, with different altitudes being run by different controllers, however this lost a lot of its appeal when it's downside was made evident during the infamous Zagreb midair, where planes on two different sectors control hit each other. The documentary is often shown to those taking up the ATC profession for the first time as a means to reinforce the nature of the work and the fact jail is a real possibility should you be having a bad day at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Zagreb_mid-air_collision

I hope to organize a visit to the CASAs historical museum this year for AFF members at Essendon and give a more in depth talk about ATC from an Australian perspective, (I did a mini one at the ATC console on display in DRW during Ozfest), for anyone that might be interested, perhaps we could do a combined Pilot/ATC panel lunch with JB747 should he be available and another Mod giving his input from the private commercial aviation perspective ( Straitman ??).

 

[nlagalle]

I hope to organize a visit to the CASAs historical museum this year for AFF members at Essendon and give a more in depth talk about ATC from an Australian perspective, (I did a mini one at the ATC console on display in DRW during Ozfest), for anyone that might be interested, perhaps we could do a combined Pilot/ATC panel lunch with JB747 should he be available and another Mod giving his input from the private commercial aviation perspective ( Straitman ??).

I'm up for that.. on a side note markis10, do you know if they do tours or the like? I'm wanting to take our scouts to see it in action one day. I'd love to also tour MEL airport but i don't think it can be done anymore?

 

[LiamR]

I hope to organize a visit to the CASAs historical museum this year for AFF members at Essendon and give a more in depth talk about ATC from an Australian perspective, (I did a mini one at the ATC console on display in DRW during Ozfest), for anyone that might be interested, perhaps we could do a combined Pilot/ATC panel lunch with JB747 should he be available and another Mod giving his input from the private commercial aviation perspective ( Straitman ??).

That sounds like a good day, I'd be interested in attending.

 

[jb747]

That all depends upon the great gods in scheduling. They have a 100% record when it comes to ensuring I miss weddings, funerals, christmas......

 

[medhead]

I'm up for that.. on a side note markis10, do you know if they do tours or the like? I'm wanting to take our scouts to see it in action one day. I'd love to also tour MEL airport but i don't think it can be done anymore?

We toured the CNS when I was a scout. I think one of the leaders/parents was the rescue helicopter pilot up. But I understand it might just be a case of calling the local office and asking if a tour is possible. Well that is the advice I was given in the early 90s.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[mjt57]

That all depends upon the great gods in scheduling. They have a 100% record when it comes to ensuring I miss weddings, funerals, christmas......

Yeah, being a shiftworker (power industry) I can empathise when one has to miss one's own funeral...

 

[mr_osborne]

I'm up for that.. on a side note markis10, do you know if they do tours or the like? I'm wanting to take our scouts to see it in action one day. I'd love to also tour MEL airport but i don't think it can be done anymore?

Back when I loved in wellington and was in the scouts, we got to go out and visit the tower one evening. I'm not aware of any special connections. Something to be aware of, they would only allow 2-3 kids in at a time, so there was a lot of waiting.

 

[straitman]

hope to organize a visit to the CASAs historical museum this year for AFF members at Essendon and give a more in depth talk about ATC from an Australian perspective, (I did a mini one at the ATC console on display in DRW during Ozfest), for anyone that might be interested, perhaps we could do a combined Pilot/ATC panel lunch with JB747 should he be available and another Mod giving his input from the private commercial aviation perspective ( Straitman ??).

OK by me if we can get the time lords to agree.