Changes coming to domestic flight check-in

[dajop]

There is no additional cost. The gate agent is already checking boarding passes. You would simply present your photo id when presenting your boarding pass.

Now if you required id to access the secure area, then yes, someone has to do that, but then less people in the secure area.

The security delays in the USA are not from the id checks, but from the security screening itself.

I don't see the problem at all. Why shouldn't you have to show id to show that it is your boarding pass..??

There will be a cost. You need to make the process robust enough to spot fake ID's, because the problem people you are targetting by ID checks are those with both the means and incentive to spend money on acquiring a higher quality fake IDs. Surely for criminals and terrorists this would be step 1? In the US trained TSA agents check the ID and use (is it UV?) lights to examine passports (not sure about licenses). I assume the agents and equipment are good enough to spot fakes. But this certainly has a cost to it. Your average FA who is trying to get a flight away on time is not going to be as thorough.

In my recent experience in the US sometimes the hold up has been with the ID checking/signing BP and have breezed through security screening. In fact at one airport last year I was departing from there was a 20 person queue for ID checkpoint and 2 people in screening! (of course if the ID checks weren't as thorough, those people would be waiting at security screening instead!)

 

[harvyk]

Can anyone answer me this...

What would the advantages be in preventing non-pax from getting into the secure area's and doing ID checks on people travelling?

It's more than likely that someone else in this world has the same name as you. (It happened to my grandfather many years ago that someone with the same name as him was on a do not fly list, he got it fixed but it did cause some problems)

Even as a convicted criminal there is no laws against flying, so even if they do an ID check, and your name comes up on their bad persons list, you'd probably still be allowed to fly (the Sept 11 terrorists I believe where known to the airline staff and yet they where still allowed to fly)

The people who you want to stop are not people who have done things in the past, but people who want to do bad things on the next flight. The people who want to do bad things on the next flight may have absolutely no record of ill intent.

Finally what about the loopholes in the system they want for those people who won't have ID? Couldn't a person of ill intent exploit them?


I remember once hearing that airport security should be happening well before the airport... If a person of ill-intent actually makes it to the airport, they already know how to get past security and thus they have already won...

To summarize my position - I don't mind seeing real security measures being brought in (real ones that make "flying safer") but I hate seeing airy fairy things that do not add security (or have loopholes the size of a chaser's Canadian convoy).

 

[Hvr]

As others have noted if implemented this will cause big changes to airports and none of them for the better. Retail is geared towards a certain number of non flying people.

Imagine the car parks with less cars, fees will rise. Prices at the shops will become even more expensive.

As has often been said without offensive weapons then anybody should be able to travel as long as they behave.

Thank goodness the airlines are fighting this, they have too much at stake with investments such as NGCI which I reckon DJ would probably like to implement.

Hopefully this will go away.

Also, if it was implemented I would hate to show my driver's licence to some jobsworth security guard. It has way too much personal information that would be at risk. Identity theft is absolutely rife and this would probably cause an increase. So I would have to carry my passport with resultant increased risk of loss.

 

[2353]

If they want to introduce screening on one form of public transport why not all the others? There are underground stations in every capital city in mainland Australia which I'm sure would create a lot of collateral damage if blown up. There are bus stations in most capitals where significant damage could be done, long distance buses and trains pass though heavily populated areas as well.

Again the gullible public is being told this proposal is for their benefit. How? If its good enough for planes why isn't there a proposal for my ID to be checked twice a day as I board the train to and from work? Lets be consistent here - again the US (and potentially Australian) Government is closing the door after the horse has bolted, the TSA process costs a motza to run (in a country that is so far in debt, they'll never get out) and for what ends - maybe tracking a couple of people flying on cheap tickets in someone else's name by yet another para-military organisation instilling fear and loathing into the general population due to the need to build an empire. Who pays for this - the population that lets it happen either through their taxes or ticket prices?

The only argument I can see for checking ID is revenue protection - and surely that is the responsibility of the service provider who should be doing it now.

 

[dfcatch]

There will be a cost. You need to make the process robust enough to spot fake ID's, because the problem people you are targetting by ID checks are those with both the means and incentive to spend money on acquiring a higher quality fake IDs. Surely for criminals and terrorists this would be step 1? In the US trained TSA agents check the ID and use (is it UV?) lights to examine passports (not sure about licenses). I assume the agents and equipment are good enough to spot fakes. But this certainly has a cost to it. Your average FA who is trying to get a flight away on time is not going to be as thorough.

In my recent experience in the US sometimes the hold up has been with the ID checking/signing BP and have breezed through security screening. In fact at one airport last year I was departing from there was a 20 person queue for ID checkpoint and 2 people in screening! (of course if the ID checks weren't as thorough, those people would be waiting at security screening instead!)

Pont taken - and of course YMMV when it comes to USA security checkpoints.

Your points are valid - but you are talking about the TSA checkpoints (with ID checking at the checkpoint introduced post 9/11).

In the USA you have two ID checks:

1/ A detailed check (including UV verification) at the TSA checkpoint.
2/ A photo ID check at the gate.

In Australia, for domestic, you have neither. In fact, anyone could check-in and board a flight without having to show ID at any stage of the process. (Makes a mockery of tix that have "no name-change rules").

I believe the suggestion as mentioned in this thread is in relation to Stage 2 as mentioned above. In this context, there is no cost, and no great effort needed at check-in or the boarding gate.

If implementing Stage 1 as above - then yes, it is more detailed.

Bear in mind that when travelling internationally in OZ (or domestic via the International terminal), I have to present my photo ID at check-in, again at immigration, and again at the gate.
And with the exception of passport control (when using a passport vs a Drivers Licence), that's the only stage of anything more than a cursory look.

So again - I don't see it as an issue.

No-one is suggesting a full TSA-verification check - and I concede that this may mean fake ID's can get through more easily. But hey- I'm not an expert.

 

[Sifor]

Perhaps the Chasers influenced the review...

Skip to 1:38
[video=youtube;W3grHjibNdA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3grHjibNdA[/video]

 

[dajop]

No-one is suggesting a full TSA-verification check - and I concede that this may mean fake ID's can get through more easily. But hey- I'm not an expert.

Which is my point, the very people who are motivated to get decent fake ID's are the ones that from a crime/security point of view are probably the ones you want to stop. Other than revenue protection by the airlines, what is the value in an ID check at the gate?

On the international front - you need to present you passport to airline to be accepted for travel internationally - no passport = no travel. At immigration, I guess outbound they are checking if you are allowed to leave the country/not on the wanted list, or overstayed your visa or other such government business. The gate check I guess is for security - but I note when I left MEL intl last week first time in ages that passport wasn't checked at gate for some reason.

 

[dfcatch]

Which is my point, the very people who are motivated to get decent fake ID's are the ones that from a crime/security point of view are probably the ones you want to stop. Other than revenue protection by the airlines, what is the value in an ID check at the gate?

On the international front - you need to present you passport to airline to be accepted for travel internationally - no passport = no travel. At immigration, I guess outbound they are checking if you are allowed to leave the country/not on the wanted list, or overstayed your visa or other such government business. The gate check I guess is for security - but I note when I left MEL intl last week first time in ages that passport wasn't checked at gate for some reason.

I can fly International as a domestic pax by simply flashing my Drivers Licence at check-in, again at immigration, and again at the gate.........

I accept the system is not full-proof - but really - is there any harm in at least making it a bit tougher..??

 

[harvyk]

I accept the system is not full-proof - but really - is there any harm in at least making it a bit tougher..??

Well in a way there is harm in making things a bit tougher...
In making things tougher it will make things take longer, it will aggravate the public, and the people whom they want to stop will simply use a fake ID, or use a stat dec stating they are John Smith...

As for getting hold of fake ID's, it's surprisingly easy... (as any 17 year old kid will tell you)...

Apparently ElAl does security really well, and for the most part it's really non-intrusive... (and they have real and credible threats against them)...
They do it by asking a couple of questions and seeing how the person reacts (the checkin agents have been trained to pick up on microexpressions). Things like that are far more effective than giving granny the 3rd degree because she had a set of knitting needles in her carryon, mean while someone they wanted to stop waltz's through because they know what the agents are looking for...

 

[dfcatch]

Well in a way there is harm in making things a bit tougher...
In making things tougher it will make things take longer, it will aggravate the public, and the people whom they want to stop will simply use a fake ID, or use a stat dec stating they are John Smith...

As for getting hold of fake ID's, it's surprisingly easy... (as any 17 year old kid will tell you)...

Apparently ElAl does security really well, and for the most part it's really non-intrusive... (and they have real and credible threats against them)...
They do it by asking a couple of questions and seeing how the person reacts (the checkin agents have been trained to pick up on microexpressions). Things like that are far more effective than giving granny the 3rd degree because she had a set of knitting needles in her carryon, mean while someone they wanted to stop waltz's through because they know what the agents are looking for...

Again - you're talking about security screening from a macro viewpoint.

My understanding is that this suggestion is only about checking ID at the gate (and maybe at check-in), to ensure that ID matches BP.

In that case - it doesn't take any extra time. There is more time spent waiting for the BP scanner than there is in "presenting your passport or photo ID open to the photo please."

I really don't understand the opposition to this.

It doesn't have to affect NGCI either, as you have used some form of ID technologically, and then use photo ID at the gate.

 

[jas]

"ID matches BP".

No worries!

1. Book your ticket under whatever fake name you like.
2. OLCI
3. Edit your online boarding pass so that it's a name that matches your ID (really not that hard to do)
4. Print 2x BPs, 1 with your ID-matching-name and one with your ticket-booking name
5. Use one BP when they do the ID check, and the other when boarding the flight (so your name matches the manifest in case anyone notices)
6. ...
7. Profit!

 

[samiam]

"ID matches BP".

No worries!

1. Book your ticket under whatever fake name you like.
2. OLCI
3. Edit your online boarding pass so that it's a name that matches your ID (really not that hard to do)
4. Print 2x BPs, 1 with your ID-matching-name and one with your ticket-booking name
5. Use one BP when they do the ID check, and the other when boarding the flight (so your name matches the manifest in case anyone notices)
6. ...
7. Profit!

6. = Make like a mule?

 

[harvyk]

I believe someone already found out what step 6 is...

"ID matches BP".

No worries!

1. Book your ticket under whatever fake name you like.
2. OLCI
3. Edit your online boarding pass so that it's a name that matches your ID (really not that hard to do)
4. Print 2x BPs, 1 with your ID-matching-name and one with your ticket-booking name
5. Use one BP when they do the ID check, and the other when boarding the flight (so your name matches the manifest in case anyone notices)
6. Create a TV show called the chaser's war on everyone...
7. Profit!

 

[dfcatch]

"ID matches BP".

No worries!

1. Book your ticket under whatever fake name you like.
2. OLCI
3. Edit your online boarding pass so that it's a name that matches your ID (really not that hard to do)
4. Print 2x BPs, 1 with your ID-matching-name and one with your ticket-booking name
5. Use one BP when they do the ID check, and the other when boarding the flight (so your name matches the manifest in case anyone notices)
6. ...
7. Profit!

Except that they check ID against boarding pass at the same time the pass goes under the scanner.

 

[williamsf1]

Some of what the findings were about is related to this issue in NZ last year

How safe are airport check in machines? - Campbell Live - Video - 3 News

New Zealands version of ACA or Today tonight

 

[flychrisfly]

Some of what the findings were about is related to this issue in NZ last year

How safe are airport check in machines? - Campbell Live - Video - 3 News

New Zealands version of ACA or Today tonight

That's mad!! On the plus side, it looks like a whole plane load can travel on one ticket. I wonder who would get all the points...

 

[jb747]

IMO the best thing which could be done is instigate a "trusted traveller" program... The same as with any other clearence, a trusted traveller has proper background checks done (the same sort of background checks that would be done for a gov't security clearence), and is then given minimal screening from then on... Random checks can be done on trusted travellers from time to time (like how explosive tests are done at random) to make sure that they are not abusing that trust.

This would free up time to do more intensive checking on pax who are unknowns.

Wishful thinking. They already have a very large group of trusted travellers, i.e. the crews, and yet they spend every bit as much time hassling them as they do the passengers. I always find it amusing that they take my toothpaste off me, and then immediately give me 570 tonnes of explosives.

And it would not be for free. Just adding 5 seconds per passenger to the check in (and it will be longer than that), would mean loading a 767 would take an additional 20 man minutes. That would have the effect of extending the turnaround times, reducing utilisation, and increasing costs. You'll get to pay that cost..... Alternatively, you need more staff at the gate, and again, whether they are airline or government staff, you'll get to pay.

 

[notzac]

I can fly International as a domestic pax by simply flashing my Drivers Licence at check-in, again at immigration, and again at the gate.........

I accept the system is not full-proof - but really - is there any harm in at least making it a bit tougher..??

You could equally ask - is there any real advantage to making it a bit tougher? I don't see that the "security theatre" that US airports indulge in actually make flying any safer.

Finally found the article that discusses the "Israelification" of airport security. I don't know if this is the real answer to security problems, but it's interesting reading all the same:

The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com

 

[oz_mark]

You could equally ask - is there any real advantage to making it a bit tougher? I don't see that the "security theatre" that US airports indulge in actually make flying any safer.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother

The point is that these proposals are not about making flying safer. It is all about other policing activities - making it easier to track people around the country.

 

[dfcatch]

You could equally ask - is there any real advantage to making it a bit tougher? I don't see that the "security theatre" that US airports indulge in actually make flying any safer.

The point is that these proposals are not about making flying safer. It is all about other policing activities - making it easier to track people around the country.

Yes, and yes.

But when you consider the importance of Aviation Security - and then compare how much ID I need to be able to open a bank account, or post office box. And then you consider that I can fly domestically without EVER being asked for any form of Identification..??..??

Without getting into the macro discussion of Security (of which the Israeli method is interesting, and thought so at the time I was subjected to it), I remember the difference in the US both before and after gate-ID checks came into play in 2001.

Pre 9/11: US Airport security was a joke. I remember one LAX-SFO flight on UA when I checked in, was handed someone else's BP as the check-in agent mixed them up on her counter (didn't notice till I was on the plane), boarded, and sat in the assigned seat. I had no idea whether that person was on the plane in my seat or otherwise. I was told that "it happens all the time".

Post 9/11: Let's break it down: (btw - i'm talking about late 2001 when it was a shambles - it's improved since then)

CHECK-IN:

Didn't seem too bad - but with the shutdown of curbside-check-in, the queues were longer. Not so bad nowadays (even in the whY check-in line).


SECURITY:

Nightmare - I remember regularly waiting 1-3 hours to get through security and past the National Guardsmen (not quite sure what they thought they would do).

Obviously this is much better now - but can still take a little time.


BOARDING:

HONESTLY - on US domestic flights - I noticed ZERO difference in boarding times pre vs post 9/11 when gate ID checks were introduced.

YMMV - but I genuinely didn't notice any difference whatsoever. No additional gate agents required - and IMHO - no additional time taken.
I stand by this even today (Priority Boarding notwithstanding )

The only issue in the US is since they introduced checked baggage fees - boarding process (not the BP check stage - but the physical boarding and sit-your-cough-down) takes longer because people try and carry-on the kitchen sink to avoid baggage fees.

Don't confuse the additional boarding time due to baggage as being caused by ID checks or Priority Boarding.


Again - what's the problem if you've got nothing to hide..??