Jetstar confirms long haul flights from Singapore

[markis10]

If JQ were going to leverage off 3K they would not need the "up to 200 new positions" for two planes that are being added, now that figure probably includes some later expansion with the dreamliners of course but "new" base is different to an expansion of the current hub.

 

[dajop]

I'd be more inclined to think they are still working these details through both from a commercial and legal perspective (e.g. can 3K actually operate A330's at this point in time - it is a new type for them). I am sure they could come up with some form of leasing arrangement that allows 3K to operate the aircraft, while not actually having title to them.

This is probably the most accurate comment.

It's difficult to see how JQ would operate and staff SIN based aircraft unless they set up a base in SIN, otherwise they'd have to hugely increase number staff overnighting in SIN. And I do think the group will find it easier to get rights ex-SIN using 3K than JQ.

Anyway does it really matter, apart from a select few SG's and QP's who will miss out on QF J lounge access if operated by 3K.?

 

[markis10]

And I do think the group will find it easier to get rights ex-SIN using 3K than JQ.

The reverse is true, JQ have fifth freedom rights under the Australia Singapore Air Services Agreement that allows them to stage beyond Singapore without getting specific route approval on many non US destinations.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1967/25.html





By contrast 3K routes require approval from the majority holder of SIA and Tiger - the Singapore Government, on the 12th of November last year the SIN-Haneda rights were given to SIA ahead of 3K for instance, QF would be mindful of this.

It wont make any difference really to the customers, but for corporate it makes a lot of difference keeping their assets and route rights where they can best be utilized.

 

[medhead]

By contrast 3K routes require approval from the majority holder of SIA and Tiger - the Singapore Government, on the 12th of November last year the SIN-Haneda rights were given to SIA ahead of 3K for instance, QF would be mindful of this.

Yes and this event was also reported in the article. I'm sure they would want to avoid something similar happening again.

 

[markis10]

Yes and this event was also reported in the article. I'm sure they would want to avoid something similar happening again.

What article are you referring to, this thread has a few, or are you thinking of this pearler http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/12/the-tiger-versus-qantas-battle-is-turning-nasty/

 

[rambisyouth]

Their sales fares are never points/SC earning, other than StarClass, so unless you were willing to pay non-sale full price fares, which would probably be more than QF, there’s not really any SC earning potential

I disagree with this. They regularly have Star Class sale fares at around 1/3 off and 2 for 1 offers. You would expect these to occur with a launch of new routes.

A 2 for 1 can easily get you $4 per SC as can an ODU if you're prepared to gamble on an upgrade.

 

[medhead]

What article are you referring to, this thread has a few, or are you thinking of this pearler http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/12/the-tiger-versus-qantas-battle-is-turning-nasty/

It would have been one of the articles linked in the first 2 posts. So could be crikey but I thought it was the one in the OP. Could have been a quote from jetstar to the effect that they wanted to put the aircraft on the haneda route but tiger got it.

I'm iPhone-ing at the moment so I don't want to use the data limit on checking links. Sorry.

 

[dajop]

The reverse is true, JQ have fifth freedom rights under the Australia Singapore Air Services Agreement that allows them to stage beyond Singapore without getting specific route approval on many non US destinations.

Agreement between the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia and the Government of the Republic of Singapore relating to Air Services [1967] ATS 25

By contrast 3K routes require approval from the majority holder of SIA and Tiger - the Singapore Government, on the 12th of November last year the SIN-Haneda rights were given to SIA ahead of 3K for instance, QF would be mindful of this.
.

Yes I was aware of fifth freedom rights - but doesn't the agreement only give JQ the ability to operate from an Australian port via SIN to xx_ without getting specific route approval for for flights from SIN-xx_? My understanding is they still need specific approval to operate from Australia-xx_, whether via SIN or nonstop from an Australian airport. So if Jetstar wanted to operate services to, for example, from MEL-PEK, it would need specific approval for that from Aus & Chinese governments whether it was MEL-SIN-PEK or MEL-PEK. It may (or may not) be easier for 3K to get the rights just to operate from SIN-PEK than JQ to operate from MEL-PEK. Given the closeness of the two countries (SG &CN) I think 3K probably would find it easer.

Singapore-Haneda for 3K was never going to happen, but 3K did get the "coughy" prize of double daily rights into Narita instead. The Singapore government whilst has active investment in SQ, has already approved lots of routes for 3K directly competing with SQ/MI (BKK, KUL, TPE, HKG, RGN, SGN, MNL, PNH).

 

[futaris]

Jetstar to launch long-haul budget flights from Singapore | Courier Mail

 

[markis10]

Yes I was aware of fifth freedom rights - but doesn't the agreement only give JQ the ability to operate from an Australian port via SIN to xx_ without getting specific route approval for for flights from SIN-xx_?

Fifth freedom specifically allows an "Australian Airline" the right to carry passengers from Singapore to non Australian destinations without the need for approval, this does not apply to 3K. AUS-PEK without a Singapore stop would probably mean no Singaporean involvement, SIN-PEK would only require the approval of the Chinese assuming the Chinese-Australian air services agreement is not open skies (I would need to check), where as 3K would require the approval of Singapore and Chinese governments for the same route.

 

[oz_mark]

Fifth freedom specifically allows an "Australian Airline" the right to carry passengers from Singapore to non Australian destinations without the need for approval, this does not apply to 3K. AUS-PEK without a Singapore stop would probably mean no Singaporean involvement, SIN-PEK would only require the approval of the Chinese assuming the Chinese-Australian air services agreement is not open skies (I would need to check), where as 3K would require the approval of Singapore and Chinese governments for the same route.

Which rules apply in situations where you have 3K operating a JQ flight?

 

[dajop]

Fifth freedom specifically allows an "Australian Airline" the right to carry passengers from Singapore to non Australian destinations without the need for approval, this does not apply to 3K. AUS-PEK without a Singapore stop would probably mean no Singaporean involvement, SIN-PEK would only require the approval of the Chinese assuming the Chinese-Australian air services agreement is not open skies (I would need to check), where as 3K would require the approval of Singapore and Chinese governments for the same route.

Yes agreed. But all I am saying is it may be easier (depending on state of relationship between governments) for 3K to get approval from both the Singapore and Chinese governments for flights from SIN-PEK than JQ getting approval from the Chinese government for flights from Aus(-SIN)-PEK. I am sure the "Jetstar group" knows full well which rights will be easier to get using which vehicle and that will be a part of the whole strategy, along with crewing, financing etc and the demand/market segmentation piece around flights from Australia to SIN and potential to impact or complement existing QF services.

 

[markis10]

Yes agreed. But all I am saying is it may be easier (depending on state of relationship between governments) for 3K to get approval from both the Singapore and Chinese governments for flights from SIN-PEK than JQ getting approval from the Chinese government for flights from Aus(-SIN)-PEK. I am sure the "Jetstar group" knows full well which rights will be easier to get using which vehicle and that will be a part of the whole strategy, along with crewing, financing etc and the demand/market segmentation piece around flights from Australia to SIN and potential to impact or complement existing QF services.

China would be the exception here as there is an open skies agreement with Singapore but Australia China is capacity limited, in that case 3K would make more sense, however China is not on the radar according to all reports with the increased capacity planned at Changi with the widebodies. Perhaps thats why 3K continues to function, where it makes sense it can utilise the benefits being a Singaporean Airline has, JQ already bases planes in Singapore on rotation via DRW rather than use 3K.

JQi will be the airline operating the A330s ex Changi under a VH rego, on former routes that don't compete with Tiger into Europe, given QF have yet to utilise their full rights into China ex Australia I dont see them wanting to grab the Singapore-China traffic to any great extent via 3K or JQi. Expanding an entity that you don't fully control only makes sense if the return is greater than the return you get doing it yourself, and if that expansion is supported by all the owners, I dont see that happening with the announcement yesterday.

 

[samh004]

I disagree with this. They regularly have Star Class sale fares at around 1/3 off and 2 for 1 offers. You would expect these to occur with a launch of new routes.

A 2 for 1 can easily get you $4 per SC as can an ODU if you're prepared to gamble on an upgrade.

And I did say, other than StarClass. Yes, they have StarClass sales, but they’re not always on, as compared to the JetSaver Light fares that are on all the time and earn nothing.

 

[markis10]

Which rules apply in situations where you have 3K operating a JQ flight?

Depends under what AOC the flight is being operated by, operated by and crewed by mean two different things, AKA QF and Jetconnect over the tasman!

 

[oz_mark]

Depends under what AOC the flight is being operated by, operated by and crewed by mean two different things, AKA QF and Jetconnect over the tasman!

Specifically I was thinking of 3K operated flights between SIN and PER, although they all have JQ flight numbers. However things play out, I am sure you will find that 3K have some sort of role in it all!

 

[markis10]

Specifically I was thinking of 3K operated flights between SIN and PER, although they all have JQ flight numbers. However things play out, I am sure you will find that 3K have some sort of role in it all!

They do the DPS run only, and operate under JQi conditions for that route. As to why they do that I am not sure!

 

[rambisyouth]

so unless you were willing to pay non-sale full price fares, which would probably be more than QF, there’s not really any SC earning potential

This is the part I'm disagreeing with. They REGULARLY have Star Class on sale so there IS good SC earning potential if you're happy to fly with them and the destinations suit.

I think it's 7 trips I've flown in Star Class so I know what I'm talking about.

 

[dajop]

I can see:

India:
CCU - Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China:
CSX - Changsha Huanghua International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KMG - Kunming Wujiaba International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KWE - Guiyang Longdongbao International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the book.jetstar.com page.

Saw these as well today (bit slow here ) None of these (if they do happen), would be A330 destinations. All closer to SIN than DRW, PER & TPE which are currently served by 320's.

 

[anat0l]

Star Class is usually much cheaper than a QF J booking of the same price. Of course, apples with apples comparisons will be quite difficult as:

• Given say a route like SIN-ATH (or any new city as given in previous posts) where QF has absolutely no way of ticketing, so there is no direct comparable route
• QF J and JQ Star Class are not alike, even though they earn at the same rates
• JQ Star Class has been widely touted as a poor international J; even with JQ's advertising of that fact, compared to other J services around the world it is nothing like. It's more just a premium service, viz. D7's XL seating (which is at least lie-flat rather than JQ Millennium).

At least most Star Class fares, even in non-sale, have an average SC rate not more than $10/SC - $12/SC, and mostly lower. There aren't a whole lot of international QF J routes that have a rate that low, even with most sales.

I wonder what QF has at SIN in order to enable it to fly more flights out of there, i.e. space, rent, gate slots, ground support, etc.. It begs to reason what this will do for the competition on any such new routes.