Air Traffic Control Issues

[MEL_Traveller]

Sure early days.

My first reaction was WTF!?

But thinking about it more, it’s actually striking me as quite a good idea. Have to see how it plays out.

Many games these days are highly complex with multiple players and teams, requiring fast judgment, reactions, and knowing what’s going on in multiple spheres of the same game/screen. And they play for hours on end!

 

[Seat0B]

Many games these days are highly complex with multiple players and teams, requiring fast judgment, reactions, and knowing what’s going on in multiple spheres of the same game/screen. And they play for hours on end!

yes i heard on ABC radio today (so who know if it is accurate) that ATC require a 30 min break every 2 hrs - imagine telling that to a gamer "sorry mate, you've played for 2 hrs, now you must take a mandatory break!" I think some parents may wish for this precedent

 

[kamchatsky]

Whilst we are starting to look to hire gamers, someone in the government would need to:

- Open up the purse so that we can hire these games/ATC candidates;
- Reduce capacity in SYD so that the existing ATCers can train these gamers; Shift flights to WSI if necessary;
- Have a competition for these gamers for "Hi Scores" so they can score/achieve their ATC training targets in shortest amount of time;

 

[mel-world]

yes i heard on ABC radio today (so who know if it is accurate)

And why would you think it would not be accurate? I'd rather trust the ABC than some random social media post.

 

[Quickstatus]

And they play for hours on end!

And no sickies.
Unless they bored with ATC work and take sickies so they can play video games

someone in the government would need to:

That is the literally the job of Air Services Austrslia.
My only question is whether they are properly resourced by govt.

 

[Seat0B]

And why would you think it would not be accurate? I'd rather trust the ABC than some random social media post.

Well yes, I rate the ABC much higher than social media, but they still do not always get things right -for example, over the years they have consistently stuffed up military ranks, and have also made mistakes describing certain public service procurement processes that I happen to know in unfortunate levels of detail. So rather than go in guns blazing saying that ATC definitely get those breaks, I was leaving wriggle room in case it's not quite correct.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well yes, I rate the ABC much higher than social media, but they still do not always get things right -for example, over the years they have consistently stuffed up military ranks, and have also made mistakes describing certain public service procurement processes that I happen to know in unfortunate levels of detail. So rather than go in guns blazing saying that ATC definitely get those breaks, I was leaving wriggle room in case it's not quite correct.

There was some airport show I was watching where there was a camera crew in the SYD tower. A controller confirmed the 30 minute rest break and rotating duties.

 

[kamchatsky]

And no sickies.
Unless they bored with ATC work and take sickies so they can play video games

That is the literally the job of Air Services Austrslia.
My only question is whether they are properly resourced by govt.

AirServices Australia only has certain budget. Someone higher up (Federal Government) actually needs to provide more funding and provide directives on reducing SYD capacity ......

 

[Quickstatus]

but they still do not always get things right -

As illustrated by many comments here.

We can imagine the work of an ATC and make commentary around that. However, we lack the minutiae to be really informed

QUOTE="MEL_Traveller, post: 3026321, member: 4620"]
A controller confirmed the 30 minute rest break and rotating duties.
[/QUOTE]
I think they also swop seats so they are not doing the same thing all shift?.

Controllers can be
Enroute- high altitude
Approach - arrivals and departures
Tower - landing take off
Ground - local aerodrome ground movements

 

[Seat0B]

AirServices Australia only has certain budget. Someone higher up (Federal Government) actually needs to provide more funding and provide directives on reducing SYD capacity ......

AirServices Australia is not funded by the federal government. It raises revenue from industry to cover its operating costs and raises debt if needed for infrastructure. so it is AirServices that would have to decide to allocate more of its revenues to training up more air traffic controllers.

 

[markis10]

yes i heard on ABC radio today (so who know if it is accurate) that ATC require a 30 min break every 2 hrs - imagine telling that to a gamer "sorry mate, you've played for 2 hrs, now you must take a mandatory break!" I think some parents may wish for this precedent

That’s not in the EBA , 30 minutes after 5 hours https://awards.fairwork.gov.au/MA000141.html#_Toc233209474

 

[Seat0B]

That’s not in the EBA , 30 minutes after 5 hours https://awards.fairwork.gov.au/MA000141.html#_Toc233209474

Exactly why I said "if that is accurate" because in my experience journalists often get it wrong.

 

[Quickstatus]

AirServices Australia only has certain budget. Someone higher up (Federal Government) actually needs to provide more funding and provide directives on reducing SYD capacity ......

Air services Australia ASA is actually a self funded Govt Business Entity.
As I said before, its revenue come from industry user charges - airport fees etc
.Its capital comes from debt markets - it borrows commercially using the Comm Govt credit rating and its position as a GBE which 100% owned by the Comm govt. At the same time, any proposed increase in user charges are reviewed and approved by ACCC because they are effectively a monopoly.

At times there may be extraordinary Govt capital injection -eg pandemic assistance, and regional Airservices infrastructure improvements.

.i wonder if this is one of those situations which require extraordinary Comm Govt capital injection or alternatively deferring any planned dividend.

By the way there is a massive project called OneSky delivered by Thales - funded by ASA 57% out of industry user charges and Dept of Defence 43% . It was $1.2 B but now balloned out to $4B. OneSky is supposed to amalgamate the civilian and military airspace, modernise the related infrastructure, and transform Air traffic management over 11% of the worlds airspace.
How much is ASA revenue is soaked up with this?

I would not want the Comm Govt or a Minister who really does not know anything about anything, to be telling ASA how to do its job. Put some extra capital in and get out of the way,

 

[flydoc2]

That’s not in the EBA , 30 minutes after 5 hours https://awards.fairwork.gov.au/MA000141.html#_Toc233209474

Modern Awards such as this are the absolute legal minimum for wages and conditions.

Of far greater relevance is the enterprise agreement approved in 2024 (about which, incidentally, the then acting CEO of ASA is quoted at the time as saying “… Will enable us to build operational resilience so we can provide the best possible service for Australia’s aviation industry and the travelling public”.

Clause 20.17 of the EA states “ATCs should not work more than two hours without a break but must not exceed three hours except in extraordinary and unforeseeable circumstances, which includes the situation where Airservices is unable to replace a shift because less than eight hours notice has been provided of a staff members’ absence. In these circumstances, breaks of limited duration may be accommodated through the use of contingency arrangements, however any extension of the period of which the break is taken must not compromise safety”

 

[Brissy1]

Modern Awards such as this are the absolute legal minimum for wages and conditions.

Of far greater relevance is the enterprise agreement approved in 2024 (about which, incidentally, the then acting CEO of ASA is quoted at the time as saying “… Will enable us to build operational resilience so we can provide the best possible service for Australia’s aviation industry and the travelling public”.

Clause 20.17 of the EA states “ATCs should not work more than two hours without a break but must not exceed three hours except in extraordinary and unforeseeable circumstances, which includes the situation where Airservices is unable to replace a shift because less than eight hours notice has been provided of a staff members’ absence. In these circumstances, breaks of limited duration may be accommodated through the use of contingency arrangements, however any extension of the period of which the break is taken must not compromise safety”

I read in that...
"should (not must);
"except " ( the out);
"including " (so not limited to); and
"break is taken must not compromise safety”(so actually no break).

When push comes to shove, it’s all sound and fury signifying nothing

 

[flydoc2]

I read in that...
"should (not must);
"except " ( the out);
"including " (so not limited to); and
"break is taken must not compromise safety”(so actually no break).

When push comes to shove, it’s all sound and fury signifying nothing

The fact remains that under their industrial agreement ATCs are entitled to breaks far earlier than the 5 hour mark that was quoted.

 

[markis10]

The fact remains that under their industrial agreement ATCs are entitled to breaks far earlier than the 5 hour mark that was quoted.

Does not mean they get them! Not so exceptional circumstances include every graveyard shift when I was working enroute in Sydney with 10 other controllers, none of which could relieve you for a break over the 8 hours, or working an 8 hour shift in the rescue co-ordination centre. Same again working the late shift in the tower when your the only staff on duty.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

AirServices Australia is not funded by the federal government. It raises revenue from industry to cover its operating costs and raises debt if needed for infrastructure. so it is AirServices that would have to decide to allocate more of its revenues to training up more air traffic controllers.

I am not sure funding is the only limiting factor.
I thought they had difficulty finding enough suitable candidates.
However I am open to being corrected.

 

[flydoc2]

Does not mean they get them! Not so exceptional circumstances include every graveyard shift when I was working enroute in Sydney with 10 other controllers, none of which could relieve you for a break over the 8 hours, or working an 8 hour shift in the rescue co-ordination centre. Same again working the late shift in the tower when your the only staff on duty.

Extraordinary. 11 controllers all at their console for 8 consecutive hours? No rotating 30 min relief provided by the supervisor/s? Was sustenance taken in situ? What about toilet breaks? Was this regarded as normal and accepted by the union officials and membership, despite the provisions of the EA?

 

[checkstate]

I am not sure funding is the only limiting factor.
I thought they had difficulty finding enough suitable candidates.
However I am open to being corrected.

I can't speak to the funding, but as far as I know, our simulator and instructor resources are at 100% capacity. There's only so many simulators, and each need a plethora of support staff, (not instructors or ATCs), to run them. To commission a new simulator would cost 10s of millions, as it would require a large capital investment: a new building with space for the required "mainframes" to run the simulator and more Eurocat or tower consoles, (computers), of which only a finite number of Eurocat consoles currently exist. If we did start commissioning one right now, it would likely not be completed before the introduction of CMATS/Onesky, (late 2027 at the earliest), and would be of no value to the company after this.

You need to hire and train the support staff to run these, which takes months to get them up to an autonomous level. Finally, you need the staff to teach the trainees. These must be current or recently licensed controllers of some sort. Usually retired controllers, or current controllers seconded into the job for 24 months. Just as you wouldn't want me teaching a Qantas cadet how to fly a 737, you need specialised technical experience in this job to teach others. While I'm not at this stage of my career yet, but there's not a huge number of retired controllers lining up to teach students for what is a decent pay-cut, and to second a current ATC, you of course need someone to replace them.

There's no shortage of candidates, but with an attrition rate of training being 50-65%, and the bottleneck being training resources, there's only so many trainees you can push through the pipeline at once.

The company could definitely make the job a little more attractive, (and get better quality trainees in as a result), by improving the training salary. It's currently ~65k from memory, for the first 12 months of training. Prospective trainees often need to move interstate, leaving them unable to rent a place in Melbourne without roommates, all while studying an incredibly demanding and all-consuming course. To rub salt in the wound, working a second job is forbidden due to the demanding nature of the training. While this is often fine for your fresh out of highschool or uni trainee, these conditions alienate many people with a few years of professional work experience in their early to mid twenties, who historically do quite well in the course.