Ask The Pilot

[Montien]

Well, AV will be the master of these sectors, though we did some in the 767, and even occasionally in the 747. Singapore to KL was about 20 minutes. You'd get the arrival information before takeoff, and have the expected arrival loaded. It's easy enough to change if necessary. And you'd brief for the arrival before departure. The shortest sector with passengers that I did in the 747 was 27 miles (Heathrow to Stansted). Same deal. Just get everything done that you could before getting airborne. Remember that we all flew training circuits in these aircraft, and we had to get through all of the procedures and checklists in the few miles of a downwind leg.

27 miles in a 747! That’s a staggering stat, @jb747. I can only imagine the workload on the flight deck for a hop that short, finishing checklists before you’ve even reached cruising altitude.

Your point about training circuits and the downwind leg makes perfect sense. It’s easy to forget as a passenger that while we’re just settling in, you’re essentially running a high-speed logistical marathon. Thanks for the insight into the "behind-the-scenes" sprint!

 

[AviatorInsight]

First off, thanks to the pilots here for the incredible insights.

As a frequent traveler on the CBR-SYD hop, I’ve always been fascinated by the logistics of such a short sector. From a pilot's perspective, how do you manage the fuel planning and "warm-up" cycles for a 737 or A320 when the flight is so short that you're practically starting your descent as soon as you hit cruise altitude?

My quickest was a recovery flight in a Saab from Bankstown to Sydney (no pax). The 737 would have been CBR - SYD. Much quicker than the SYD - CBR route because jets had to go via WOL.

With any of these short flights, regardless of the aircraft type, you need to plan ahead.

Doing as much as you can on the ground before you go. Things like briefings and landing stopping solutions where all you then need to do is just fly what you have briefed.

In the 737 you get quite good at it that you know you’re doing well (and ahead of the game) when you still have time to eat something.

 

[markis10]

The 737 would have been CBR - SYD. Much quicker than the SYD - CBR route because jets had to go via WOL.

Syd-cbr used to be via Marulan direct when there was just the two runways while further south flights went via WOL, was fun trying to get a RAAF P3 down to 200AMSL at Nowra after arriving from South Australia at flight levels across all the traffic.

 

[jb747]

My wife, very sensibly, banned me from flying anything after I retired from the airline. Given some subsequent events, she was quite correct. So, to fulfill my flying needs, I got deeply into a flight sim game called DCS. One of those nice friendly ones, where you shoot others down. So, now I find myself acting as a mod on a world wide server...where you do see some interesting behaviour. But, I especially like the bit where these young aces (or "best pilot ever" according to one alias) are shot down by a bloke old enough to be their grandfather. Petty, but fun.

 

[NM]

My wife, very sensibly, banned me from flying anything after I retired from the airline. Given some subsequent events, she was quite correct. So, to fulfill my flying needs, I got deeply into a flight sim game called DCS. One of those nice friendly ones, where you shoot others down. So, now I find myself acting as a mod on a world wide server...where you do see some interesting behaviour. But, I especially like the bit where these young aces (or "best pilot ever" according to one alias) are shot down by a bloke old enough to be their grandfather. Petty, but fun.

What is your aircraft of choice for the lessons being delivered?

 

[RSD]

My wife, very sensibly, banned me from flying anything after I retired from the airline. Given some subsequent events, she was quite correct. So, to fulfill my flying needs, I got deeply into a flight sim game called DCS. One of those nice friendly ones, where you shoot others down. So, now I find myself acting as a mod on a world wide server...where you do see some interesting behaviour. But, I especially like the bit where these young aces (or "best pilot ever" according to one alias) are shot down by a bloke old enough to be their grandfather. Petty, but fun.

LOL!! I hope you tell them that they have been shot down by someone that old too!

 

[jb747]

What is your aircraft of choice for the lessons being delivered?

F16.

LOL!! I hope you tell them that they have been shot down by someone that old too!

Isn’t that like being a genius. You just don’t say anything.

 

[exLXCXFF]

@jb747 - what are the “standard procedures” (if such exist) for go arounds on a A330.

Looks like that QF84 had three landing attempts in Sydney on 5 February morning.

 

[flyingfan]

I'm interested in the answer too (on this thread I often think what a great question, I wish I'd asked that!). I read on Admiral Cloudberg that airlines might have rules prohibiting three landing attempts because the reasons that two go-around were necessary mean a third attempt is also likely to fail?

 

[AviatorInsight]

I'm interested in the answer too (on this thread I often think what a great question, I wish I'd asked that!). I read on Admiral Cloudberg that airlines might have rules prohibiting three landing attempts because the reasons that two go-around were necessary mean a third attempt is also likely to fail?

Exactly, our policy was changed from two missed approaches down to one! However, practically speaking, most Captains will take more than flight plan to have another approach up their sleeve. By the third attempt, you would have to be pretty certain of getting in, as you would probably be committed to the destination, and the alternate fuel would have likely been used up by that point.

Of course, when the weather dictates, then it makes good sense to give yourself a few goes (plus holding and whatever else is needed) and then still proceed to an alternate with the fixed reserve intact.

 

[jb747]

@jb747 - what are the “standard procedures” (if such exist) for go arounds on a A330..

How to fly the aircraft, or why go around?

Procedurally a go around is a very well practiced set of steps. The reasons are varied. You can be told by ATC, traffic may cause an issue, you just don't like the way the approach is working out, you hit one of the defined performance limits (i.e. sink rate, or speed, or accuracy). A go around is always going to be better than a bad approach and landing.

In very simple terms, you apply TO/GA. Not only does that set the power but it changes the navigation modes to give you a go around track. Flight director will re-engage, or change modes, to GA. Rotate to about 15º nose up. PNF retracts one stage of flap. Now you're basically back at a take off, just before gear retraction.

Looks like that QF84 had three landing attempts in Sydney on 5 February morning.

There is nothing on the old weather reports or the details of FR24 to give any indication of why. The approach was stable, weather was fine. I'd suspect something ATC / ground related.

I'm interested in the answer too (on this thread I often think what a great question, I wish I'd asked that!). I read on Admiral Cloudberg that airlines might have rules prohibiting three landing attempts because the reasons that two go-around were necessary mean a third attempt is also likely to fail?

Blanket prohibitions like that are stupid, and can actually give you the exact opposite of a safe outcome. The EK 777 that crashed in Dubai was the result of a poorly executed, but mandatory, go around. Being 1,000' long on a 12,000' runway, might be worth discussing, but should still be subject to discretion at the time.

I don't know the current state of play at QF, but I doubt that it would have changed. There was nothing mandatory, but their manual did say that more than two go-arounds are undesirable. Weather often comes through in waves, so it's quite possible for the aircraft in front of you, and the one behind, to get in, whilst you miss out. You can go around and luck out again. Should you then leave? Well it all depends, and is complicated enough that any blanket ban will probably be counterproductive.