Ask The Pilot

[Major]

Pilots - how do you rate the king and Queen of Thailand effort in flying the B737 into Butan's Paro airport (notoriously tricky to land into)

I suspect the Drukair pilot hovering behing them had a lot to do with it

 

[AviatorInsight]

Pilots - how do you rate the king and Queen of Thailand effort in flying the B737 into Butan's Paro airport (notoriously tricky to land into)

The fact that he’s 72 and still flying is impressive in itself. Having never been to Paro, he’s done a better job than I could do. Although, flying a 737 in the Pilbara is pretty much the same right? (I’m joking in case that didn’t come through)

 

[jb747]

JB, what was the longest flight you piloted in the A380? Just wondering how tired you were at the end of these flights and how much more tired will the pilots flying the Project Sunrise flights likely be?

The longest, predictably, was Dallas to Sydney, which clocked in at 16:58. There were a number of others, (Sydney-Dubai) that were in the 16:45 region, though I expect they had appreciable holding. It's not just flight time that you need to consider, but duty period. Even back on the 747, I hit 20 hours a couple of times, when things had gone wrong at the departure end, or we'd had to divert.

How tired you are isn't a direct function of the flight's length. I'm sure that some of AV's domestic days leave him pretty shattered, I know that the 767 domestic operation could be more tiring than international. Early starts, no real chance to get a break. Day after day.

With regard to the ULR ops, much will depend upon the quality of the crew rest provisions. I expect that they'll go with the cheapest possible option, and that means that there's unlikely to be the sort of setup that the 380 has. No matter what is there, it's likely that on many occasions the crew (or individuals with the crew) will be arriving in an extremely tired state.

Remember, in the incident reports, there's no such thing as fatigue...it's always crew error.

That is going to interesting - I heard that Boeing was sending aircraft back to the U.S. from their China acceptance/handover centre but wasn't sure what types. I guess they would have to reconfigure the cabins for whoever takes them next.

From what I gather it's all types. Basically nothing to be accepted. And if it stays that way, there goes a very big market.

 

[jb747]

I suspect the Drukair pilot hovering behing them had a lot to do with it

If you aren't in a control seat, there's a limit to how much influence you can have.

 

[RSD]

The longest, predictably, was Dallas to Sydney, which clocked in at 16:58. There were a number of others, (Sydney-Dubai) that were in the 16:45 region, though I expect they had appreciable holding. It's not just flight time that you need to consider, but duty period. Even back on the 747, I hit 20 hours a couple of times, when things had gone wrong at the departure end, or we'd had to divert.

How tired you are isn't a direct function of the flight's length. I'm sure that some of AV's domestic days leave him pretty shattered, I know that the 767 domestic operation could be more tiring than international. Early starts, no real chance to get a break. Day after day.

With regard to the ULR ops, much will depend upon the quality of the crew rest provisions. I expect that they'll go with the cheapest possible option, and that means that there's unlikely to be the sort of setup that the 380 has. No matter what is there, it's likely that on many occasions the crew (or individuals with the crew) will be arriving in an extremely tired state.

I guess things like turbulence during rest periods would also affect the quality of rest too?

Are there many occasions where the F/O has the need to consult the captain during the captain's rest period?

 

[jb747]

I guess things like turbulence during rest periods would also affect the quality of rest too?

They certainly do. You might even need to consider the known areas of turbulence whilst writing the roster.

Are there many occasions where the F/O has the need to consult the captain during the captain's rest period?

Not really. Basically, if you need to call someone back from the crew rest, then things are happening which will probably preclude you getting to destination anyway, so the roster goes by the wayside. Any aircraft issues, you expect to be handled, though you might need to come back for the aftermath. For instance, a generator failure on the 380, I’d simply expect to be told about when the roster cycled. An engine failure, you’d expect to be called once the engine was secured and the descent started. As Captain, you felt every minor bump and niggle anyway, so you might notice without being called. I recall getting the FO out of the bunk on one occasion, when we had some flight control computer issues, and I wanted everyone on deck.

 

[RSD]

They certainly do. You might even need to consider the known areas of turbulence whilst writing the roster.

Not really. Basically, if you need to call someone back from the crew rest, then things are happening which will probably preclude you getting to destination anyway, so the roster goes by the wayside. Any aircraft issues, you expect to be handled, though you might need to come back for the aftermath. For instance, a generator failure on the 380, I’d simply expect to be told about when the roster cycled. An engine failure, you’d expect to be called once the engine was secured and the descent started. As Captain, you felt every minor bump and niggle anyway, so you might notice without being called. I recall getting the FO out of the bunk on one occasion, when we had some flight control computer issues, and I wanted everyone on deck.

Do you actually get quality sleep when resting or is it more just lying there with your eyes shut? I'm involved with a project where we will be living in and working out of an underwater habitat at 60 metres for a few weeks and something that has become apparent from other similar projects is that they need to totally redesign the sleeping quarters so that people have a greater chance of getting quality sleep - partly because snoring while pressurised to 7 atmospheres in a habitat that has an atmosphere with a very high % of helium becomes rather loud to say the least.

 

[jb747]

Sometimes. Call it 50% of the time.

 

[Quickstatus]

partly because snoring while pressurised to 7 atmospheres in a habitat that has an atmosphere with a very high % of helium becomes rather loud to say the least.

RMD sorted that out many years ago

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Did the QF165/QF166 trip this weekend BNE-ROR-BNE.... also know as the Palau Express. BY the sounds of things QF are on contract from the Australian Government to run this trip once a week to replace the Air Nauru flights that operated previously.

A couple of interesting things to note. Its just on 6:00hrs up and 5:30hrs back. Probably one of the longer 737-800 flights that QF operates. A couple of questions observations:

- there were around 50 pax on the outbound sector and 80 pax for the return.
- its the same aircraft, tech and cabin crew for both the outbound and return flights. They carry a QF engineer on the flight up and back. They get to the ROR airport a little earlier and wake the aircraft up and then they jump back onboard to come back to BNE. He also came in handy retrieving a mobile phone for one of the PAX.
- The aircraft is catered out of BNE for the outbound and inbound sectors. So it is basically snacks all round for the return journey which departs at 08:30am local time and lands in BNE at 3:15pm local time.
- What diversions / alternates would be in place for ROR. After Port Moresby there is nothing much else on the way up. Would they use a PNR instead...

Have to also call out great service from Andy Blair (Capt) and Bernadette (CSM) and the BNE based crew....

 

[AviatorInsight]

Did the QF165/QF166 trip this weekend BNE-ROR-BNE.... also know as the Palau Express. BY the sounds of things QF are on contract from the Australian Government to run this trip once a week to replace the Air Nauru flights that operated previously.

- What diversions / alternates would be in place for ROR. After Port Moresby there is nothing much else on the way up. Would they use a PNR instead...

So I just spoke to a QF mate of mine on the 737. He’s BNE based and asked him a few questions of my own as well about it. I had no idea QF did these flights.

1. The crew overnight here but get a maximum of 12hrs off there. For the same amount of flying time, they get more time off in Perth.
2. QF 737s don’t have CPDLC (datalink - an SMS like service), so they’re on HF radio for position reports and any deviations or level changes.
3. Their alternate is Saipan (PGSN). Probably explains the cap of pax on the way up vs way back. You don’t want to commit yourself to a single runway airport on an island. Always carry the alternate. I thought they would have used WAJJ or WABB instead.
4. They can actually do the entire trip non EDTO (just).

 

[RSD]

So I just spoke to a QF mate of mine on the 737. He’s BNE based and asked him a few questions of my own as well about it. I had no idea QF did these flights.

It is only a very new service - started earlier this year I think.

If 1829 metres is long enough for a 737 then PTYA is also an option.

 

[747sp]

Hi JB i was reading about the Gimli glider and i would like to get a better understanding of the event.
With the fuel load being so much lower than expected , therefore the mass of the plane would be lower than expected. Would the pilots notice any difference in performance on takeoff , and would that be a red flag?
When you order fuel , you talk about ordering in tons so who does the conversion to ensure the order is correct ?
From your 767 days would you fly without the fuel gauges working?
With the failure of power what inpact would there be on the function of the brakes ,flaps and spoilers in a 767?

 

[Rabs97]

Pilots - how do you rate the king and Queen of Thailand effort in flying the B737 into Butan's Paro airport (notoriously tricky to land into)

Here’s a good video from Petter from Mentour Pilot (IMO the best aviation YouTube channel) who takes a far less successful approach into Paro and analyses it, whilst also giving an overview of some of the unique requirements when flying into Paro (like a guide pilot who directly instructs unfamiliar pilots on how to land at Paro):

 

[jb747]

Hi JB i was reading about the Gimli glider and i would like to get a better understanding of the event.

The wikipedia article is pretty good.

With the fuel load being so much lower than expected , therefore the mass of the plane would be lower than expected. Would the pilots notice any difference in performance on takeoff , and would that be a red flag?

It was roughly 10 tonnes lighter than planned, but honestly that would be barely noticeable when looking at an overall weight of around 120 tonnes. Also, at the time, the 767 was very new, and at all weights it was quite sporty compared to previous aircraft, so the crew would not have had a strong basis for comparison.

When you order fuel , you talk about ordering in tons so who does the conversion to ensure the order is correct ?

Well, I really should be talking tonnes. It's ordered in thousands of kg, down to one decimal place (so, 120.5). These days the aircraft are very smart, and will automatically control the fuel loading, needing only final load, and the specific gravity. The refuellers, deal in litres, but again, the conversion is automated. Loading is checked in many ways, but one is a paper fuel chit, given to us by whomever refuelled the aircraft. We ensure that it matches what he thinks he loaded (and for which the company will be billed).

They were being set up by the mixing of imperial and metric.

From your 767 days would you fly without the fuel gauges working?

No, and neither should this crew have done so. The MELs provide relief for one of the two fuel measuring systems being u/s, but not for two. They should have had two separate checks, which normally would be the two separate FQIS systems, but as one was u/s, should have been the functional one, and the tank stick check. There was no allowance at all for flying with both FQIS systems down.

With the failure of power what inpact would there be on the function of the brakes ,flaps and spoilers in a 767?

The brakes would work off accumulator pressure, so you'd have enough to stop, but would have no anti skid. Don't modulate the pressure, just one mid pressure application, and live with it. Flaps and slats would not work. The RAT only provides pressure to flight controls connected to the centre hydraulic system. Normally multiple systems are powering each part of the controls, so dropping back to just one would make them heavy and sluggish. Partial power to inboard ailerons, elevator and rudder, and about half of the spoiler panels would be powered, for roll control only.

The RAT provides no electrical power.