Top English environmentalist wants air travel rationed

[JohnK]

Personally I could not care less about climate or my carbon footprint or any of the dumbass solutions constantly proposed. The qualifications Lord, and I use the word very loosely, Turner has does not conern me either. Who authorises the interview and then the publishing of these stupid ideas?

Glad I do not live in England. There is no way someone is going to tell me how many flights I can take a year. What next? Limit on the number of kilometres you can drive in a car? How about limiting the number of bus trips? How about limiting how long we all can live? Sound familiar?

 

[drron]

What I would like to know is how many climate-change conferences, etc. Mr Adair has flown to in the last 3 years, and what class of service he travels in.

I'd be disappointed if all his proselytizing turned out to be a case of "don't do as I do, do as I say". That would, after all, be the height of hypocrisy.

Personally, I couldn't do my job if my flights were rationed, and I daresay that many others (millions of others, actually) would be in the same predicament. It's all well and good to make these publicity-grabbing pronouncements, but it's simply not practical.

I ran into an Ex treasurer of Victoria that i went to school with who happened to be at a Climate Change conference in the Carribbean.Funny that the World Cup cricket happened to be on at the same time!

 

[Nigelinoz]

I ran into an Ex treasurer of Victoria that i went to school with who happened to be at a Climate Change conference in the Carribbean.Funny that the World Cup cricket happened to be on at the same time!

Really ! Gee,what a happy co-incidence for them.

 

[Platy]

I ran into an Ex treasurer of Victoria that i went to school with who happened to be at a Climate Change conference in the Carribbean.Funny that the World Cup cricket happened to be on at the same time!

Did you know him (or her) well enough to know if they were a keen cricket supporter? I am sure there is more to tell if you are implying anything untoward. Perhaps in a public forum where your innuendo can be tested?

 

[Platy]

Personally I could not care less about climate or my carbon footprint or any of the dumbass solutions constantly proposed. The qualifications Lord, and I use the word very loosely, Turner has does not conern me either. Who authorises the interview and then the publishing of these stupid ideas?

Glad I do not live in England. There is no way someone is going to tell me how many flights I can take a year. What next? Limit on the number of kilometres you can drive in a car? How about limiting the number of bus trips? How about limiting how long we all can live? Sound familiar?

As an Englishman living in Australia I would observe, as a generalisation, that both the quality of the media in debating an issue and the responses of the electorate in appreciating such leave Aussie in their wake. Just a personal observation.


In the uk

• There is a democratic government
• They actively solicit ideas through a select committees
• The MPs decide
• The voters concur or not
• If the idea is unpopular the MPs will not prevail

Fortunately there are those who do care about their environment.

There was a time when petrol was rationed.

 

[drron]

Did you know him (or her) well enough to know if they were a keen cricket supporter? I am sure there is more to tell if you are implying anything untoward. Perhaps in a public forum where your innuendo can be tested?

Mate lighten up.I suggest you have a problem with global warming under your collar.
Where did i suggest anything untoward?The point i was making is that officials make pronouncements as in the subject of this thread then totally ignore their own advice.Fly halfway around the world to discuss global warming-nice!
It was also a comment on the behaviour of governments/politicians in general-have a meeting/forum where you want to go then pretend it couldnt have been done any other way eg video conferencing.
And yes I did know him well and the discussion at this meeting did cover the world cup.

 

[Mal]

In the uk

• There is a democratic government
• They actively solicit ideas through a select committees
• The MPs decide
• The voters concur or not
• If the idea is unpopular the MPs will not prevail

Fortunately there are those who do care about their environment.

And because of that they overly target certain areas (such as flying) to ensure that they get back into power, rather than targetting unpopular areas such as greenhouse gasses from electricity generation, cars etc. Yes, the congestion charges do apply - but they are about London not wanting traffic congestion - not for environmental reasons.

Flying is just such an easy target, and they know it and exploit it.

 

[Platy]

And because of that they overly target certain areas (such as flying) to ensure that they get back into power, rather than targetting unpopular areas such as greenhouse gasses from electricity generation, cars etc. Yes, the congestion charges do apply - but they are about London not wanting traffic congestion - not for environmental reasons.

Flying is just such an easy target, and they know it and exploit it.

My reference to the congestion charge was to illustrate the principle that when something is in short supply it tends to go up in price. Rationing tends to be a tactic of last resort (eg. traffic in Athens).

The aviation industry is not unique in terms of being a target to reduce greenhouse emissions.

"They" (presumably you mean the UK MPs by "they") haven't actually decided to ration anybody's flights.

 

[Mal]

"They" (presumably you mean the UK MPs by "they") haven't actually decided to ration anybody's flights.

I was referring to the APD levy that keeps going up. Their claim is that it enforced to cut greenhouse gas emissions from flying, but instead it is a clear tax grab that does little or nothing for assisting with reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

The reason they pick on that tax? Purely because they think the general populous will not complain. It's no different to the "theoretical" capping of a person's flights. Again, the general populous will not be overly upset... so they can stay in power.

Instead, if they taxed electricity generation properly for the "alleged environmental damage" it does or perhaps taxed cars or fuel better then they might get a more equitable result. But they don't - because then the general populous will kick them out.

It's not environmental - it's political.

 

[comint]

In the uk

• There is a democratic government

Sorry, I must disagree on this point. A country that does not have a head of state elected/appointed “in some way” by its people, has an entire house of parliament full of “lords” and cultivates privilege/influence using a class based social/cultural system can NOT by definition be considered democratic.

My 2c.

 

[possumoz]

So if I pay the extra couple of bucks on my ticket to make my flight carbon neutral isn't actually neutral? Get back to me when they run out of places to plant trees.....otherwise give me my money back.

 

[Platy]

Sorry, I must disagree on this point. A country that does not have a head of state elected/appointed “in some way” by its people, has an entire house of parliament full of “lords” and cultivates privilege/influence using a class based social/cultural system can NOT by definition be considered democratic.

My 2c.

Yes, indeed, democracy is a relative term!

The House of Lords cannot reject or amend a Bill proposed by the fully elected House of Commons, only debate it and delay it.

Hereditary peerage (membership by right of birth) has ceased.

Incidentally, the monarch has far more power to influence the content of proposed bills than most realise and has exercised that power in some instances (for example to exempt the royal household from certain IR and discriminatory legislation so that they can hire and fire who they want to work for them). Actually a powerful argument for us Aussies to get rid of the monarchy which has been largely overlooked in episdoes of local debate. A debate for another time, not now, please!!!



The last two to three decades have seen various attempts to change the model of appointment to be entirely or mostly through election of members. These moves are generally put forward by the Labour Party and howled down by right wing elements in the Tories (Lib/National equivalent).

It is probably just a matter of time before the Lords are fully elected.

 

[Platy]

So if I pay the extra couple of bucks on my ticket to make my flight carbon neutral isn't actually neutral? Get back to me when they run out of places to plant trees.....otherwise give me my money back.

One suspects that the true value will only be realised when the various emission trading schemes (eg. here in Australia, the one for the EU) are finally realised.

IMHO the few bucks the airlines currently optionally levy are unlikely to to be fully carbon neutral (but I could be wrong).

 

[Platy]

Mate lighten up.I suggest you have a problem with global warming under your collar.

Don't worry mate, I'm having a ball!

It's fascinating to see what people come up with, especially on complex issues with no easy answers...

IMHO (as a humble scientist) there is always a chance of a rapid change in climate to the next ice age (we are due a cold snap of a few 1,000 years geologically speaking), which would make the warming debate moot, although still leave the human world struggling to work out how to control climate to its political and economic advantage...

 

[drron]

Don't worry mate, I'm having a ball!

It's fascinating to see what people come up with, especially on complex issues with no easy answers...

IMHO (as a humble scientist) there is always a chance of a rapid change in climate to the next ice age (we are due a cold snap of a few 1,000 years geologically speaking), which would make the warming debate moot, although still leave the human world struggling to work out how to control climate to its political and economic advantage...

As just a humble observer of nature your last point has a lot going for it IMHO.But lets not worry-Kevin will give us all free flight coupons to counter the GCC.

 

[Platy]

But lets not worry-Kevin will give us all free flight coupons to counter the the GCC.

Discounted for carbon credits...

Nah, that's the State Gov's game, but they are silly enough to give the money directly to the airlines (CO) instead of a voucher to potential overseas tourists to spend here anyway...thus our tax payers money is being funneled overseas (to US based airline) rather than re-directed into the local economies

 

[Soundguy]

Definitely Green charlatans like Al-Gore and Flannery should have their air travel rationed because they fly so much for so little reason and often by private jet also. All whilst preaching against it of course, as they busily pocket the cash from the clueless suckers that unthinkingly listen to their tripe.

 

[Platy]

Definitely Green charlatans like Al-Gore and Flannery should have their air travel rationed because they fly so much for so little reason and often by private jet also. All whilst preaching against it of course, as they busily pocket the cash from the clueless suckers that unthinkingly listen to their tripe.

As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss...

Take Al Gore for example:

- he drives a hybrid car
- he buys energy for his home from renewable energy sources
- he has installed extensive energy saving measures in his home
- he buys carbon credits to offset his air travel
- he donates his salary from Kleiner Perkins (an investment company with $600 million to invest in clean technology) to charity
- the organisations he chairs are non profit
- he donated all of his share for his Nobel Prize to charity

The poor man, going to all of that trouble only to be howled down as a charlatan...:shock:

Flannery I have a severe problem with for reasons I can't disclose, although they would not make him a charlatan.

As another saying goes about clueless suckers, "there's one born every minute" - right, Soundguy?

 

[NYCguy]

Al Gore has an estimated net worth exceeding US$100M, so he's certainly in private jet territory and probably doesn't fret about donating his KPCB salary/bonuses to charity.

Tim Flannery, on the other hand, might jet about on his frequent evangelistic missions to save the environment (and we can all see the irony in that!), but I don't think he's in G650 territory like Mr Gore.

Anyhoo, as the original article cited by NM, it was noted that:

“One always suspects with these half-baked proposals that the people who put them forward really intend them to apply to ordinary people, many of whom have only recently gained access to air travel, rather than to themselves.”

In other words, "don't do as I do, do as I say"! It's tantamount to declaring "I will continue to fly around the world in Business Class attending roundtables, conferences and summits, but you'd better not DARE think about flying away on holiday more than once a year, or you're a carbon terrorist!"

Pfffffffffffft!

 

[Platy]

Anyhoo, as the original article cited by NM, it was noted that:

“One always suspects with these half-baked proposals that the people who put them forward really intend them to apply to ordinary people, many of whom have only recently gained access to air travel, rather than to themselves.”

In other words, "don't do as I do, do as I say"! It's tantamount to declaring "I will continue to fly around the world in Business Class attending roundtables, conferences and summits, but you'd better not DARE think about flying away on holiday more than once a year, or you're a carbon terrorist!"

Pfffffffffffft!

Just for the record...it seems the orignator of that quotation is one Rt Hon Brian Wilson MP and the quote was lifted from the "flyingmatters" website in response to an original story in the Daily Mail. Brian Wilson has close ties to the nuclear industry (which may well have put him at loggerheads with anything or one environmental for years - remember the UK has nuclear power for decades). The web site uses him for pithy quotes in its quest to champion the aviation industry.

Back to rationing. It seems that another more popular suggestion being considered is to ration carbon allocations to individuals (rather than specifically flights), with the opportunity to buy extra allocation if folk require.

Remember too that flight numbers are effectively capped through the availability and alocation of slots at busy airports such as Heathrow, London.

Obviously there will be an increasing financial incentive to perfect "clean" technology so inclement and unpopular scenarios such as rationing of flights or exorbitant taxes can be avoided in the future.