QF Engineers set to strike !

[rhjames]

Qantas needs to break this chain of caving in because their employees do the 'go slow', 'more paperwork', 'overtime ban', 'rolling stoppages' etc. It's the only way they can rein in these employees and unions.

When I was involved in union negotiations years ago, I had a basic policy right from the start - never give in to strike action. However, I'd also like to think that I was a fair negotiator, and resolved things quickly and fairly. However, I had to take the hard stance at times. In the end it paid off, and everyone was happy. A lot of the problem used to be just a few power hungry union delegates, plus standover tactics. I don't know if this applies here.

 

[Platy]

I think which side of the argument I agree with should be quite obvious. I see it as quite simple - .

Indeed, it is Mal. However, nice as it is attach to a pithy paradigm the real world isn't that simple for many reasons.

Just one reason is that the counter logic can be equally applied to the employer. If their tactic of decreasing salaries is successful they will keep doing it. At some point they will suffer as the negative consequences of that strategy hurt their business (skills shortage, disgruntled emloyees, bad public PR, incompetent employees, etc).

You refer to the concept of playing a "game" in your previous post. As you know, in game theory and dynamic modelling, the outcomes of various strategies and counter strategies are not always obvious, particulary when a number of interacting forces are at play - the system may not even be in equilibrium.

I am always thankful for my own good fortune (a fantastic free education and lots of opportunities) and mindful of the efforts of others to further their own lot...

 

[Platy]

A lot of the problem used to be just a few power hungry union delegates, plus standover tactics. I don't know if this applies here.

Trying to negotiate an (apparently reasonable in terms of CPI) claim over 18 months before retracting labour supply seems quite reasonable to me, especially if the employer refuses to continue negotiation.

Remember, the employer (QF) has used whatever tactics available to it to reduce pay for various groups of employees, for example, setting up Jetstar as a separate corporate entity to be able to redefine salaray packages.

The unions and employees are legally entitled to adopt whatever strategies are available (whether wisely or unwisely).

I guess most (all?) of us on this blog really don't know the full story so it is hard to judge.

 

[Mal]

Qantas managers risking lives, says union - National - BrisbaneTimes

Qantas managers put passengers at risk when they did the work of striking engineers in Melbourne today, unions claim.

ALAEA president Paul Cousins said 12 to 15 Qantas managers from around Australia, all former engineers, worked on Melbourne aircraft overnight.

Mr Cousins said engineers renew their licences every two years, and must have worked in maintenance for at least six months of a preceding 24-month period.

"We certainly don't believe that these managers that have taken over these positions could actually show those credentials," he said.

 

[Mal]

Qantas shifts work offshore | The Courier-Mail

In the past 10 days full so-called A-checks have been conducted on two Qantas jets by engineers at Los Angeles' international airport, and there are plans for more in other major cities including London, Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon told News Ltd.

Qantas hoped to increase the number or maintenance checks performed by engineers out of Avalon in Melbourne who were not part of the current dispute, he said.

 

[oz_mark]

Passengers stranded as Qantas flights axed - Travel - smh.com.au

Scores of Sydney-bound passengers are stranded at Perth Airport after arriving to find their 11.45am flight cancelled.

Rose Bay woman Natalie, who did not want her last name revealed, said she had not yet been told how she was going to get home after Qantas flight QF580 was scrapped.

Normally 580 is a 743, so could be lots of pax affected.

 

[medhead]

A lot of the problem used to be just a few power hungry union delegates, plus standover tactics. I don't know if this applies here.

I'd be inclined to judge qf management harshly one this one. Look at how they treat their customers.

e.g. They have recently increased prices to cover the cost of fuel but are still charging us fuel tax. Effectively double dipping on customers. If they do that to the customer what hope the employees.

All the evidence points to a mob of old school bosses (i.e. B**tards) who will sink to any money grubbing low.

 

[moa999]

e.g. They have recently increased prices to cover the cost of fuel but are still charging us fuel tax. Effectively double dipping on customers.

Ah have you seen how much more fuel prices have gone up in the meantime. The price increases were to cover FURTHER fuel price increases.

I'll give you a sense for how dire fuel prices have made the airline business at the moment
Market Cap US$ Share price movements
AMR (AA) 1,430 Jan06 $41, Now $5.73
Northwest 1,340 May07 $25, Now $5.51
Continental 1,180 Jan07 $50, Now $11.96
UAL (United) 766 Jan06 $43, Now $6.09
Delta 1,470 Apr07 $21, now $5.00
USAir 234 Jan07 $58, Now $2.54
... ie you could buy the six main US legacy carriers for about US$6.5bn (plus a fair chunk of debt and pension liabilities) -- as much as Qantas is worth)

Qantas A$6,000 (US$5,500) Oct07 $6 now $3.02
Virgin A$550 (US$500) Feb07 $2.80 now $0.52
BA Pds2,450 (US$1,200) Feb07 $5.75 now $2.112

 

[pauly7]

Qantas has very poor leadership in people and IR terms when compared to such organisations.

.

Thats a very broad very sweeping statement... ahem.

 

[Mal]

This is a selected quote from one of the ALAEA union honchos:

All ALAEA LAMEs including those in these categories will be expected and are obligated to follow the direction from the ALAEA office as a privilege of their membership. There will be disappointment if any ALAEA member ignores the overwhelming direction endorsed by most of our Qantas membership. The ALAEA is a professional Association for all LAMEs and stands to protect the interests of all. The best remedy for LAMEs that break rank comes in the form of a long memory and the fact that Qantas managers come and go.

Nice to see that the lemmings are led over the cliff-face.

 

[Platy]

Nice to see that the lemmings are led over the cliff-face.

And nice to see that qantas shareholders would have also done the lemming routine and followed Geoff and Margaret over the cliff edge if it hadn't been for one particularly greedy mega rich chappie that accidentally scuppered the private equity deal...

 

[Platy]

I'll give you a sense for how dire fuel prices have made the airline business at the moment

Personally, I would prefer to make evaluations based upon how the bottom line is affected when next profit results emerge rather than the vagaries of the market and stockholders (did someone mention lemmings in another post?).

In the meantime, allowing an 18 month wage negotiation to escalate is very risky strategy by QF management, if it really is as dire as you suggest.

 

[Platy]

This is a selected quote from one of the ALAEA union honchos:.

Reminds me somewhat of those august pillars of professional society including the Law Society and Australian Medical Association who earnestly instruct their members to hold the line of exorbitant fee charging and not to undercut for the common good of the profession, whilst ensuring under supply of skills into community (at least in the case of the AMA and medical specialist "colleges").

Boody professional bodies...

 

[Platy]

Normally 580 is a 743, so could be lots of pax affected.

Yes and obviously far too many phone calls to let passengers know what's going on...

 

[Platy]

Thats a very broad very sweeping statement... ahem.

Yes indeed, but maye it has to be given the size of the rude roo! That's quite a lot of staff to go and rub up the wrong way when your not out and about taking the piss of your customers by demoting their loyalty scheme, reducing service levels, raising prices and dreaming of your $130 million pay day. (I'm laughing at Geoff, not you my friend.)

Seriously, I have yet to meet a single coalface staff member that has one good word to say about any interaction with their CEO.

There again, their CEO is very reluctant to say anything positive or complimentary about his staff in the public arena.

That just doesn't seem like a very constructive way to do business IMHO!

 

[Mal]

And more threats of strike action:

Qantas engineers threaten more strike action - National - BrisbaneTimes

Qantas engineers are threatening to resume strike action on Friday unless the airline's management makes a fresh offer in their pay dispute.

"The last thing Qantas engineers want to do is inconvenience the travelling public, but it is unacceptable for a company that is making record profits to expect these hard-working, highly skilled engineers to take a real pay cut."

"The ball is in Qantas' court - they can stop this dispute at any time by coming back to the table with a reasonable offer that we can take out to our members and have approved," Mr Cousins said.

Mr Dixon said the airline's wages policy had delivered most workers an increase of three per cent a year for the past seven or eight years, with bonuses of between three and four per cent on top of that.

"We're not prepared to contemplate five per cent," he said.

 

[medhead]

Ah have you seen how much more fuel prices have gone up in the meantime. The price increases were to cover FURTHER fuel price increases.

In the case of qantas, I remember the excuse for the price increases being that they have now recognised that the high fuel cost is a long term thing, not short term, and it is appropriate to recover the cost by a permanent increase in fares. Therefore fuel taxes are being absorbed into the fare.

This only happen in the last 2 to 3 months in the time my broker's research tells me that the oil price has increase about $20/b. Compared to about $60/b over 2007. I also see that a singapore refined product called Jet has decreased recently (~3%) and oil has dropped about 5% to 6%

I'm afraid market caps and share prices don't tell me much about the cost of fuel. Except given the QF value, and that most of their price fall is due to the management buy out fiasco, that the price of fuel isn't hurting QF that much based on relative market reaction.

I think I'll stick with my assessment of qantas management in judging the current strikes.

 

[Standby]

In the case of qantas, I remember the excuse for the price increases being that they have now recognised that the high fuel cost is a long term thing, not short term, and it is appropriate to recover the cost by a permanent increase in fares. Therefore fuel taxes are being absorbed into the fare.

This only happen in the last 2 to 3 months in the time my broker's research tells me that the oil price has increase about $20/b. Compared to about $60/b over 2007. I also see that a singapore refined product called Jet has decreased recently (~3%) and oil has dropped about 5% to 6%

I'm afraid market caps and share prices don't tell me much about the cost of fuel. Except given the QF value, and that most of their price fall is due to the management buy out fiasco, that the price of fuel isn't hurting QF that much based on relative market reaction.

I think I'll stick with my assessment of qantas management in judging the current strikes.

This is offically a rant (I have had lenghty delays twice in the last week due engineering workbans)By-passing that emotion, if an employee thinks they are worth X dollars and the company can pay it good luck to them.
However distancing myself from Geoffs year on year rhetoric that the sky is falling and the need for a common sense approach the undeniable facts are that SIN AV Gas has doubled in price in the past year.lets do the maths here .I going to say the numbers on fuel$ increases are correct...anyone who can substantiate otherwise pls add yr 2 cents worth. GD and a number of industry (non QF people) have said fuel is going to cost 2B more than 2007-8. If QF announce say a 1-1.3B profit thats stil a hole ...read loss for 2008-9 of $.5-1 B based on trading conditions in 2007-8. Most companies dont like losses and look to offset these by cost cutting if they cant generate significant more $ from their customers.Now how has yr mortgage moved or the price of groceries etc etc gone in the past 12mths?Its reasonable to assume that the punters that have delivered that revenue growth/profit last year dont have as much disposable $ this year..and that means businesses -my firm has recently moved to a BFOD deal to cut our costs...the things that drove profits last year arent there going forward....message to the engineers,do you really think youre getting more than 3%.Today UA announced they are laying off 1,000 pilots..if they dont need them they need probobly 3-5,000 less flight attendants and so on down the track..I'm guessing a large number of UA engineers are on the chopping block as well...fighting for a wage increase when things are in yr favour is fine...but the goalposts have moved..time for a reality check...boys...I still have shares in the red rat (bugger shud have sold at $6 never mind)and what seems fair to me IMO is if everyone else (most of whom earn less than engineers)has take 3% I suggest you seriously consider likewise..many a union has delivered the over odds wage growth to find ultimately only half the workforce remain..what outcome can you live with so that all get some benefit.
Rant over..thank U..

 

[medhead]

the undeniable facts are that SIN AV Gas has doubled in price in the past year.lets do the maths here .I going to say the numbers on fuel$ increases are correct...anyone who can substantiate otherwise pls add yr 2 cents worth. GD and a number of industry (non QF people) have said fuel is going to cost 2B more than 2007-8. If QF announce say a 1-1.3B profit thats stil a hole ...read loss for 2008-9 of $.5-1 B based on trading conditions in 2007-8. Most companies dont like losses and look to offset these by cost cutting if they cant generate significant more $ from their customers.

I think you miss my point. Qantas has increased fares in the last few months because the price of fuel has increased. Most of that increase occurred last year NOT in the last few months - commonwealth securities research substantiates that. Therefore the recent fare increases should have been made to substantially cover the cost of fuel.

It that case why are customer still being charged a surcharge as well. Because GD has no respect for customers. I don't mind them covering their costs but QF is double dipping on recovering the fuel cost. If that is how they treat customers then IMO they probably being bad to their staff as well.

On some of your other rant - Fuel up 50%, fuel bill up $2b (that's 60% on 2007) but how much is revenue up due to fuel surcharge and/or fare increases? I don't see GD talking about that in public.

edit: in fact he was on pm yesterday still predicting a slight (20%?) increase in profit. If fuel prices are so bad when do we get the profit downgrade?

 

[rhjames]

"with bonuses of between three and four per cent on top of that."

Hang on - what's this all about - bonuses? I'm starting to think these guys are on a pretty good deal. They probably have only a 38 hour week, with paid overtime etc. I'd like to find out exactly what sort of money they earn. As far as skill goes, I don't see them as any different to any other maintenance people on specialized equipment. If a plane fails, hundreds of people can die. If a bus looses brakes or steering, many people can die. If a train fails, hundreds can die. I appreciate their skill, the same as I appreciate the skill of any trained person. But let's keep it in perspective.