Total Newbie RTW question/s

[mosanator]

OK please bear with me, as the more I read some of these posts the more confused I get!!

PAX- 3, Me - QFF gold, Wife- not a member yet and 13 Yr old son also not a member.

Planned trip: CBR-via SYD-HKG-LHR-ABZ, land to MAN-FCO, land to FRA-NYC-BWI-NYC-LAX-LAS-LAX-SYD-PER-CBR
Did this on mileage monkey and it said it was good to go, but if I do it on the OWE planner it says too many segments in Europe. ?????

Depart - 15 Jan 2008

Cut and Paste from Mileage Monkey-with proposed Airlines added
1: CBR-SYD: 1st of 4 (Southwest Pacific) - QF
2: SYD-HKG: intercontinental - QF
3: HKG-LHR: intercontinental - QF
4: LHR-ABZ: 1st of 4 (Europe) - BA
5: ABZ-MAN: surface
6: MAN-LHR: 2nd of 4 (Europe) - BA
7: LHR-FCO: 3rd of 4 (Europe) - BA
8: FCO-FRA: surface
9: FRA-LHR: 4th of 4 (Europe) - BA
10: LHR-JFK: 1st of 1 (intercontinental entry to North America without immediate transit & departure) - BA
11: JFK-BWI: 1st of 6 (North America) - AA
12: BWI-JFK: 2nd of 6 (North America) - AA
13: JFK-LAX: 1st of 1 (North America Transcon) - QF
*13: JFK-LAX: 3rd of 6 (North America)
14: LAX-LAS: 4th of 6 (North America) - AA
15: LAS-LAX: 5th of 6 (North America) - AA
16: LAX-SYD: intercontinental - QF
17: SYD-PER: 2nd of 4 (Southwest Pacific) - QF
18: PER-CBR: 3rd of 4 (Southwest Pacific) - QF

I know it is not the "maximiser" for this type of ticket, particularly the US legs but besides that, is this valid?

Also what scheme should I join the Wife and Son up to? Was thinking of getting "she who must be obeyed" a QP membership thru here. But should I think of altering our schedule in the US and having a go at this challenge thingy with AA?

Please excuse my ignorance, and thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Keith009]

Looks kosher to me; Mileage monkey seems to include surface segments into the individual continent limit - which is a bug as the rules indicate that surface segments only count towards the total limit of 20.

Others might be clearer on whether LAX-JFK QF is allowed in such an itinerary but I seem to recall reading that it can be done so long as you have a transpacific flight to Australia somewhere.

As for the choice of FFPs, definitely switch to AA if you have the chance for the much better earn/burn. You won't need to alter much of your itinerary if it is the plat challenge you need to complete; No idea about your class of travel, but if flying Y all you need do is switch LHR-JFK to AA, and JFK-SYD to the AA flight number and you'll get your 10 000 Qpoints on AA flight codes. If in J or F, you might want to swap JFK-LAX to AA as the 1.5 qpts/mile means that you might well qualify Plat after JFK-LAX and hence enjoy the 100% mileage bonus earlier.

 

[Hawkeye]

You will almost certainly need to have flexibilty in terms of dates and carriers, at this late stage. For example, QF29 HKG-LHR has availabilty in L (presuming an economy RTW) on 17th, but nothing on 15th, 16th, 18th, 19th or 20th. BA and CX appear to have availabilty for this segment, however.

The itinerary itself looks nice.

Has the LAX-JFK (and vice-versa) on QF107/108 ever been sorted? From my understanding, if you use QF as your transpacific carrier, it is ok. There has been mention that it is only allowed if transiting, and not for stopovers.

 

[mosanator]

Yeah sorry didn't mention - we are travelling the dreaded L !!!

I have 3 seats on SYD-HKG (2 day stop, can't do the 23 hour long haul stuff anymore, getting too old !) and HKG-LHR. The rest is still not settled.

I read that stuff about QF108 and thats what I was banking on being allowed to use it for a Stop Over. It does say on their planner - "International On line connection/ stop-over traffic only". It is the main reason we return to JFK from BWI. Had read somewhere here that it was the best flight to catch transcon US. If it is not possible I will do different route with AA.

Might do FRA-LHR-BWI-NYC-LAS-LAX-SFO. All AA, would that qualify my wife and son in the challenge?

Cheers.

 

[Keith009]

AA doesn't operate LHR-BWI, nor any direct flights between LON and WAS.

FRA-LHR-JFK-BWI-JFK-LAS-LAX-SFO on AA flight codes only yield about 7048miles according to gc.kls2.com, and hence 7048 Qpts. You need 10 000.

Throwing in SFO-SYD with an AA flight number should get you over the line comfortably.

 

[NM]

I read that stuff about QF108 and thats what I was banking on being allowed to use it for a Stop Over. It does say on their planner - "International On line connection/ stop-over traffic only". It is the main reason we return to JFK from BWI. Had read somewhere here that it was the best flight to catch transcon US. If it is not possible I will do different route with AA.

You can take QF108 JFK-LAX so long as you are taking QF into or out of the USA. If stopping over at LAX anyway, the risk is that you will arrive into LAX very late.

As far as economy options trans-continental are concerned, I would rather be on QF108 than most AA options. (ok, as an AA EXP member I might consider the AA option hoping for an upgrade to J). At least on QF you will be fed and will get IFE (so long as the AVOD is working).

And if stopping over at LAX, the risk is that you get in very late and may find it difficult to get form the airport to the hotel if the shuttle services have stopped for the night. So might be worth checking with the hotel for shuttle bus operating hours.

 

[serfty]

.... Mileage monkey seems to include surface segments into the individual continent limit - which is a bug as the rules indicate that surface segments only count towards the total limit of 20. ...

Errmm, methinks that would be the oneworld planner with this bug ...

 

[Keith009]

Errmm, methinks that would be the oneworld planner with this bug ...

Oops, that's what I meant... I blame the hangover.

 

[mosanator]

On the QF 10late matter I rang Qantas and they said that if I was just stopping over that would be fine, JFK - LAX stop and then out on any QF code flight.

But because I wanted to fly to Vegas, and that would require AA flights I can't, so I am screwed there. Looks like I am going to have to make changes and I am stuck on AA metal in the good ole USA.

 

[NM]

On the QF 10late matter I rang Qantas and they said that if I was just stopping over that would be fine, JFK - LAX stop and then out on any QF code flight.

But because I wanted to fly to Vegas, and that would require AA flights I can't, so I am screwed there. Looks like I am going to have to make changes and I am stuck on AA metal in the good ole USA.

I would be very interested to see the wording of the rules they are trying to apply. It is my understanding that QF is able to sell QF107/108 so long as you arrive into the USA or depart from the USA on a QF flight on the same itinerary.

How would QF interpret their sales restrictions on QF108 if you were to use the QF codeshare for LAX-LAS-LAX (QF3157 or QF3167 / QF3106 or QF3126)?

 

[Dave Noble]

If crediting to AA and especially when doing the challenge, I would be suggesting taking an AA flight on the JFK-LAX anyway. extra FF miles over the QF flight number plus counts towards the challenge plus a lot more options which do not have a reputation for being late

Dave

 

[mosanator]

If I ticket through Qantas, can I still get those North Americian legs credited to AA?

I thought you had to ticket through AA.

Not fussed about the Challenge.

Sorry if that is a real stupid question!

 

[NM]

If I ticket through Qantas, can I still get those North Americian legs credited to AA?

I thought you had to ticket through AA.

The issuing airline makes no difference for FF program selection. QF or AA tickets can be credited to either FF program.

The only time the issuing airline comes into play is if you want to upgrade an AA flight using AA miles or e-VIP then it needs to be issued (or re-issued) by AA. Apart from that it makes no difference.

Now the price may vary depending on which airline issues the ticket due to different ways the airlines charge fuel surcharges.

 

[Dave Noble]

If I ticket through Qantas, can I still get those North Americian legs credited to AA?

I thought you had to ticket through AA.

Not fussed about the Challenge.

Sorry if that is a real stupid question!

You can ticket through Qantas if you wish however you will pay a fair bit more than buying through AA due to the Fuel Fine charges. Also, AA has a dedicated ATW desk who are great for making the booking through and understand the rules

If you don't now wish to do the challenge that is fine, but it is a decent amount of good value FF miles plus decent status that are lost if you don't do it

Dave

 

[serfty]

... It is my understanding that QF is able to sell QF107/108 so long as you arrive into the USA or depart from the USA on a QF flight on the same itinerary. ...

It is my understanding that, if they desired, Qantas would be able to sell QF107/108 so long as you arrive into the USA or depart from the USA on any carrier's international flight in the same itinerary. Such sale would not break any (cabotage) legislation.

However, Qantas choose to make this restriction for their own reasons.

 

[NM]

It is my understanding that, if they desired, Qantas would be able to sell QF107/108 so long as you arrive into the USA or depart from the USA on any carrier's international flight in the same itinerary. Such sale would not break any (cabotage) legislation.

However, Qantas choose to make this restriction for their own reasons.

I think there are two issues at play here. One is the cabotage rules that apply to non-US airlines. The second is an agreement between QF and whoever the US ruling body is (FAA?) that set the rules by which QF can operate codeshares etc on US domestic routes. I believe it is the second agreement that limits QF's ability to sell QF107/108 to those arriving or departing the USA on a QF flight on the same itinerary. This is the same sales restriction as for all QF codeshares on domestic USA flights. I understand QF agreed to the same restrictions for QF107/108 as for all their codeshares, even though it is more restrictive than the cabotage rules.

This was explained to me by the JFK Station Manager for QF. He met me upon arrival into JFK on QF108 when I was connecting to a BA trans-Atlantic flight. I had originally booked the QF108 as part of a DONE4 that used QF to arrive into LAX (that itinerary then included several AA domestic flights using AA flight numbers followed by QF108 LAX-JFK and then BA to LHR). However, the day before I was to commence that DONE4, I was redirected to another project that required me in KL first. So my DONE4 was cancelled and changed to a DONE3 ex-KUL with all USA and Europe flights matching my original DONE4.

As a result of this change my DONE3 now included QF108 but I did not arrive or depart the USA on QF (CX in and BA out), so was no longer permitted to use the QF108 flight.

The QF station manager at JFK met me at the door of the arriving aircraft as he was concerned as to how I had managed to book the itinerary (who booked it, who issued it etc). He wanted to see the e-ticket receipt. He said that if the FAA found out they had carried me, they would get a big fine, but he though it was unlikely they would find out. He said the check-in agent should have checked and refused to board me and bounced me to an AA flight. He wanted to know the booking TA details so he could contact them to let them know the booking eligibility rules. He understood the mistake when I explained the last minute change from eligible DONE4 to ineligible DONE3 routing.

I questioned him about the rules and circumstances under which QF could sell QF107/108 and mentioned that I thought it should be ok since I was making a direct international connection on BA. He told me of the requirement to arrive or depart on QF on the same itinerary. My original DONE4 itinerary was permitted, even though it was not a direct connection from the arriving QF flight. But my new itinerary was not allowed due to not using QF for USA arrival or departure.

The QF JFK station manager was very pleasant courteous and really just trying to work out how I managed to get on the flight. Something in their system must have triggered an alert to him for him to come to the aircraft door to meet me. was QF Platinum at the time and upgraded to F for that segment using points. So he knew where to find me .

Overall it was quite an enlightening discussion for both of us.

 

[serfty]

I think there are two issues at play here. One is the cabotage rules that apply to non-US airlines. The second is an agreement between QF and whoever the US ruling body is (FAA?) that set the rules by which QF can operate codeshares etc on US domestic routes. I believe it is the second agreement that limits QF's ability to sell QF107/108 to those arriving or departing the USA on a QF flight on the same itinerary. This is the same sales restriction as for all QF codeshares on domestic USA flights. I understand QF agreed to the same restrictions for QF107/108 as for all their codeshares, even though it is more restrictive than the cabotage rules. ...

The first part is certainly correct, the second, if correct (as relayed by the QF station manager), still indicates to me, that Qantas, for whatever reason, have chosen to have this restriction.

I guess the point is moot. Even with this there is still some confusion over the application of Qantas' rules in relation to "Direct QF International Connection" and "International QF Connection on same itinerary".

 

[NM]

The first part is certainly correct, the second, if correct (as relayed by the QF station manager), still indicates to me, that Qantas, for whatever reason, have chosen to have this restriction.

I understood it to be part of the negotiations for the permission to operate QF codeshares in the US domestic market. So how much of it is "choice" and how much was a condition imposed by the FAA is unknown. But the end result is that QF is restricted by agreement with the FAA on how they sell those services.