The 6:30am BNE-SYD is gone and I am not on it [No ESTA]

[serfty]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Oh dear ... and this time of year the ex Oz flights leave around two hours earlier than in Nov-Feb.

 

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Had check-in closed? The ticket doesn't have an agreed stopover, so a short check might have had issues of its own.

Regarding the return to BNE 'at own expense' - possibly the airline might have agreed to this, but it would probably require a waiver of some sort to be signed. Was there time to do this before boarding?

It would appear that flight departed early at 6:21am. That's another laugh. I wasn't on the flight. :mrgreen:

Is it too much to expect SCs and points for the flights booked? See how I go.

 

[anat0l]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

They wouldn't check me in for domestic flight. Something about the system not allowing it. The sad part is I had the ESTA before the domestic flight departed. They could have reopened domestic flight and issued boarding pass as I had carry on only.

Check-in closes 30 minutes before departure. You got your ESTA 20 minutes before departure. Unless there was a special override (again, not sure if there is one or how this can be done), they couldn't check you in and give you a boarding pass. This may have been even more difficult as you were connecting to an international flight.

The USD1050 to get onto BNE-LAX flight is a laugh. And then Orbitz said I could change the ticket to a later date but would have to do it today and have to pay USD250 change fee + fare difference. This is Virgins requirement to fix stuff up. Hahaha. I can get brand new flights with a reputable full service carrier for ~AUS800 and they want that in change fees alone. Hahaha.

That's probably the cost of getting the same flight today. As in, rock up and purchase it right now.

Here's the rub: where did Virgin stuff up? They were following procedure. You got your ESTA but then you failed to check-in on time.

It wouldn't be the first time that change fees blow up a ticket price - we all know that as those who are well aware of the ins and outs of having the cheapest tickets with the most restrictive conditions.

Virgin have not heard the last of this episode. It has cost me ~AUD600 with flights, hire car and hotel. I can wear that cost as a rookie error but it's not my fault. I want the identical flights at a later date. That's not a lot to ask.

Need to work out how to go about it and my options. Ombudsman?

Some of your auxiliary expenses might be claimable under travel insurance, but if the travel insurance deems it was your fault (i.e. you failed to check-in on time), then they'll deny your claim until you can produce evidence otherwise (may include a letter from Virgin or a court order).

You'd think it's not a lot to ask, but don't forget we give rookies and so on here on AFF (well, most members do) a pretty hard time for whining when they can't simply change their flight on a very restrictive ticket when airlines have heaps of seats coming out of their ears.

As usual, the pathway for grievances are airline first; a written complaint may be suitable in this case. You could try contacting the VA rep on AFF. After that, if you think you still have a strong case, you can take it to Consumer Affairs or the Airline Advocate. One thing that will be interesting is that this was bought from Orbitz US; what effect does that have for any enforcement here in Australia?

It really shows that this is not VISA free travel for Australians and not fee free especially that the dollar has tanked in recent times.

ESTA is not really a visa as such. A real visa for the USA would take months to complete.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

They wouldn't check me in for domestic flight. Something about the system not allowing it. The sad part is I had the ESTA before the domestic flight departed. They could have reopened domestic flight and issued boarding pass as I had carry on only.

The USD1050 to get onto BNE-LAX flight is a laugh. And then Orbitz said I could change the ticket to a later date but would have to do it today and have to pay USD250 change fee + fare difference. This is Virgins requirement to fix stuff up. Hahaha. I can get brand new flights with a reputable full service carrier for ~AUS800 and they want that in change fees alone. Hahaha.

Virgin have not heard the last of this episode. It has cost me ~AUD600 with flights, hire car and hotel. I can wear that cost as a rookie error but it's not my fault. I want the identical flights at a later date. That's not a lot to ask.

Need to work out how to go about it and my options. Ombudsman?

You have a contract with the airline to carry you BNE-LAX (via SYD). It is not a domestic ticket. Your contract with the airline states you will meet all relevant immigration requirements in order to be allowed to board.

If you can show that Virgin acted incorrectly in denying you boarding - either they closed check-in early, or their policy is that they will allow you to board a domestic tag without valid international documentation, they will be up for any expenses you incurred, and your subsequent request to fly on another date should not be a problem.

However, if Virgin acted in accordance with their policies and procedures - essentially the flight had closed and you didn't hold valid travel authority to enter the USA.

The airline is under no contractual obligation to carry you, or to reopen the flight if the flight was closed under standard procedure. (Whether they could have as a matter of courtesy is another issue - but probably not one for the ombudsman or consumer affairs.)

Under the terms of your ticket, if you 'voluntarily' change flights before the first sector you are liable for a ticket reprice. That's pretty much standard terms and conditions. (Whether or not the airline wants to waive that as a courtesy is another matter - but probably not one for the ombudsman or consumer affairs.)

That an airline's fare has increased several hundreds of dollars, or that other airlines are offering a fare cheaper than the change fee is not a matter for an ombudsman or consumer affairs.

 

[BettyB]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

ESTA was approved ~6:10am. International flight at 9:50am. Virgin refused to issue me boarding pass to SYD and now want USD1050 to get me on BNE-LAX flight.

This is partly my fault but the majority of the blame is with Virgin. Appalling.

Have been on phone to Orbitz for over 1 hour.

How is Virgin even remotely at fault?

You should have checked the VISA/TRAVEL requirements well BEFORE your planned departure.

I don't think you deserve any compensation at all.

 

[earlyriser]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Not sure how relevant this is but earlier this year I was ticketed from CBR to EWR and bags were checked through with Qantas and AA. I was called to the gate an hour early in SYD because I did not have an ESTA on file due to a computer error. If they wouldn't let you go BNE to SYD, then why wasn't my ESTA checked in CBR?

 

[BettyB]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Here's the rub: where did Virgin stuff up? They were following procedure. You got your ESTA but then you failed to check-in on time.

Exactly. Jumping up and down because you weren't organised isn't going to solve anything.

Good on Virgin for sticking to the rules.

 

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

You have a contract with the airline to carry you BNE-LAX (via SYD). It is not a domestic ticket. Your contract with the airline states you will meet all relevant immigration requirements in order to be allowed to board.

If you can show that Virgin acted incorrectly in denying you boarding - either they closed check-in early, or their policy is that they will allow you to board a domestic tag without valid international documentation, they will be up for any expenses you incurred, and your subsequent request to fly on another date should not be a problem.

However, if Virgin acted in accordance with their policies and procedures - essentially the flight had closed and you didn't hold valid travel authority to enter the USA.

Fair enough.

I have Qantas flights in 3 weeks, booked via AA, BNE-SYD-HKG-BKK all on one ticket. The BNE-SYD flight is the night before. I have done this in the past. They don't check passport/eligibility requirements to enter HKG/BKK in BNE.

So what changes with a same day connection like I had today? Were VA were worried they would have to bring me back to BNE from SYD?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be allowed on domestic flight and then determine eligibility before USA flight. I had 105 minutes connection in SYD.

Either way quite happy to wear the blame and cost but something tells me Virgin could have done something more at very little cost and all would have been fine. Doesn't hurt to send in feedback.

 

[greenfish]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

It really shows that this is not VISA free travel for Australians and not fee free especially that the dollar has tanked in recent times.

As I understand it, the ESTA system was modelled on Australia's Electronic Travel Authority. And yes, the ETA costs money too.

 

[anat0l]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Not sure how relevant this is but earlier this year I was ticketed from CBR to EWR and bags were checked through with Qantas and AA. I was called to the gate an hour early in SYD because I did not have an ESTA on file due to a computer error. If they wouldn't let you go BNE to SYD, then why wasn't my ESTA checked in CBR?

Had QF/AA carried you to the USA and you arrived with no ESTA, they (QF/AA) would have been responsible for taking you back. They would also be fined for that error.

There is a requirement at check-in that staff acknowledge that you have an ESTA. That acknowledgement in the system charges them with the responsibility that if you are deported for not having an ESTA, they are responsible for carrying you back.

If check-in agents want to break procedure like that, they do so at their own risk. Had you been deported due to no ESTA, the airline would be fined, they would need to pay for you to go home (you may be sent the bill) and they'd track it back to the agent who ticked off that you had an ESTA when in reality you did not. That agent would likely be fired.

Did you actually have a valid ESTA but just failed to show it at CBR? It could be that some information was lost as the final manifest was produced and you seemed to appear not to have an ESTA. In any case, the agent at CBR most likely was counselled for that, unless there really was a computer error and that kind of information was lost in the process of preparing the final list of passengers on the flight to the USA.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Fair enough.

I have Qantas flights in 3 weeks, booked via AA, BNE-SYD-HKG-BKK all on one ticket. The BNE-SYD flight is the night before. I have done this in the past. They don't check passport/eligibility requirements to enter HKG/BKK in BNE.

So what changes with a same day connection like I had today? Were VA were worried they would have to bring me back to BNE from SYD?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be allowed on domestic flight and then determine eligibility before USA flight. I had 105 minutes connection in SYD.

Either way quite happy to wear the blame and cost but something tells me Virgin could have done something more at very little cost and all would have been fine. Doesn't hurt to send in feedback.

Individual airlines have their own policies. In this case you journey for the day was BNE-LAX, not BNE-SYD.

VA probably were concerned they'd have to fly you back to BNE. And they wouldn't have a fare to cover the cost of that leg. The walk up fare for today exceeds the cost of your ticket.

Equally as you think it is fair to be carried on the domestic, another passenger would have jumped up and down asking how it was possible VA allowed them to go all the way to SYD only to be turned around at that point.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

The 6:30am BNE-SYS is gone and I am not on it.

I didn't realise I needed ESTA and couldn't get it done in time this morning. So sad.

What time did you arrive at check-in for the BNE-SYD flight?

 

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

What time did you arrive at check-in for the BNE-SYD flight?

I arrived ~5:23am for a 6:30am flight. 2 people already served at the 2 international check-in counter and a person in front of me in queue. The couple served in one couner had 2 huge bags and had weight issues and they spent a good 10 minutes or so shuffling some minor things around. Think I was served ~5:40am.

I did the ESTA application on phone and when I went to last step clicked on PAY now and was returned back to first page. No record of ESTA application number. Went to retrieve it but did not see the option to retrieve without application number. Started application again and go to the end and was told there is a already an outstanding application for this person. The finally managed to retrieve the application and after reviewing every option paid and the would have been ~6:10am.

Oh I should have been at the airport ~15-20 minutes earlier but a series of minor events occurred to use that time and then stupidly waited ~10 minutes for Hertz car rental receipt.

Would have been fine had I gone to check-in when I arrived at airport.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

They wouldn't check me in for domestic flight. Something about the system not allowing it. The sad part is I had the ESTA before the domestic flight departed. They could have reopened domestic flight and issued boarding pass as I had carry on only.

Usually if the flight is closed, it's closed..

The USD1050 to get onto BNE-LAX flight is a laugh. And then Orbitz said I could change the ticket to a later date but would have to do it today and have to pay USD250 change fee + fare difference. This is Virgins requirement to fix stuff up. Hahaha. I can get brand new flights with a reputable full service carrier for ~AUS800 and they want that in change fees alone. Hahaha.

Virgin have not heard the last of this episode. It has cost me ~AUD600 with flights, hire car and hotel. I can wear that cost as a rookie error but it's not my fault. I want the identical flights at a later date. That's not a lot to ask.

Need to work out how to go about it and my options. Ombudsman?

As you know its only an airline advocate and I don't think you will get any help from them.. It's the passengers job to ensure they have the correct travel docs in place. At the end of the day it is your fault, and it's a suck it up and learn from it. I don't think they are going to give you another mistake fare in place of it.

Chalk it up to experience...

 

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Individual airlines have their own policies. In this case you journey for the day was BNE-LAX, not BNE-SYD.

VA probably were concerned they'd have to fly you back to BNE. And they wouldn't have a fare to cover the cost of that leg. The walk up fare for today exceeds the cost of your ticket.

Equally as you think it is fair to be carried on the domestic, another passenger would have jumped up and down asking how it was possible VA allowed them to go all the way to SYD only to be turned around at that point.

Point taken MEL_Traveller.

It is my fault not having an ESTA but the ESTA is only required before the international flight. Virgin made it a point that it needed to be there before domestic flight as well and it wasn't.

Lots of things went against me this morning. The most important one was the time it took me to do the ESTA and the time wasted by the couple with the overweight bags. The agent should have seen this and told them to move aside as there are 2 people waiting in queue.

As I said a whole lot of little things leave a bitter taste in mouth and yes had I been organised these little things would not have mattered.

 

[RooFlyer]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

The 6:30am BNE-SYS is gone and I am not on it.

I didn't realise I needed ESTA and couldn't get it done in time this morning. So sad.

<snip>
My dealings this morning with Virgin confirm that I was dealing with a LCC. Very ordinary service. I am extremely stressed. This should have been a fun weekend.

<snip>
Virgin have not heard the last of this episode. It has cost me ~AUD600 with flights, hire car and hotel. I can wear that cost as a rookie error but it's not my fault. I want the identical flights at a later date. That's not a lot to ask.

Need to work out how to go about it and my options. Ombudsman?

Not your fault? Sorry JK, this has occurred because, as you say, you didn't realise that you needed an ESTA and left it too late to get it. Nothing to do with a LCC etc etc ... As others have pointed out, it wasn't a 'domestic flight', but the first sector of an international flight which includes the USA, with all its attendant regulations which are strictly enforced.

Thinking that they should re-open check-in etc because you weren't organised isn't reasonable I suggest.

 

[Anna]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Sympathies JohnK.

This sort of thing can happen to anyone, frequent flyer or not. I was once denied boarding a flight from LHR to BOM because I had forgotten to get a visa. Luckily for me BA didn't charge me extra to move the flight to the following day to allow me to get the visa in the meantime. It was all pretty stressful though, and yes my own fault.

 

[greenfish]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

With the benefit of hindsight, might have been worth just paying down to Sydney - on QF if need be - on the 7am and pleading your case in Sydney. Should still have been enough time - just.

Anyway, looking at it on the bright side - 28+ hours of economy flying avoided

 

[straitman]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Not your fault? Sorry JK, this has occurred because, as you say, you didn't realise that you needed an ESTA and left it too late to get it. Nothing to do with a LCC etc etc ... As others have pointed out, it wasn't a 'domestic flight', but the first sector of an international flight which includes the USA, with all its attendant regulations which are strictly enforced.

Thinking that they should re-open check-in etc because you weren't organised isn't reasonable I suggest.

To be fair to JohnK he has subsequently admitted that this is his problem since the post you are quoting.

In any case I don't believe that it is a VA LCC type issue as (IMHO) this could just as easily happened with most airlines. The attitude and authority level of the individual checkin agent has as much bearing on the outcome as anything else here.

 

[JohnK]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Not your fault? Sorry JK, this has occurred because, as you say, you didn't realise that you needed an ESTA and left it too late to get it. Nothing to do with a LCC etc etc ... As others have pointed out, it wasn't a 'domestic flight', but the first sector of an international flight which includes the USA, with all its attendant regulations which are strictly enforced.

Thinking that they should re-open check-in etc because you weren't organised isn't reasonable I suggest.

Again point taken.

All I have had from Virgin today is a lot of "Can't do's" and "didn't do's". That is probably again my fault but that is not relevant.

- They could have taken me to SYD domestic and then worried about the consequences
- You have 2 international check-in counters and you have 2 people are reorganising luggage and as a check-in agent you don't call up one of the other 2 people waiting in the queue? Sorry but this has me baffled now I have had time to think about how a check-in agent sat around for ~10 minutes doing nothing while someone was reorganising luggage and 2 people in the queue.
- Orbitz wanted to help but Virgin was imposing the change fees and fare difference. Yes they saw this was a cheap "mistake" fare and dug their heels in quite deep. Their loss not mine. The airfare only cost me ~AUD375. Virgin are going to lose quite a lot off me. Who pays for lounge access for a Velocity Gold who takes SQ flights?

And to those are laughing their heads off I can see you stupid likes on the posts. It doesn't take much to put 2 and 2 together. I am not asking for compensation. Why wouldn't Virgin give me SCs and points for a flight I paid for and turned up to the airport to take? This is not high expectation on my part. It is the least they can do under the circumstances.

And yes RooFlyer we do not need to agree but in my experience Virgin and their staff behave like a LCC. No doubt about it. I think the few good stories that you hear are an accident and there are some genuinely good staff but that is it. Like that story of the couple who did not make the Qantas flight at SYD T3 and rushed over to SYD T2 with about 20 minutes to go and VA staff somehow put them on the flight.