How QANTAS is destroying the One World business model

[medhead]

The rubbish earning is only on routes to Asia and Europe, if I recall simpler and fairer correctly (IIRSFC)

 

[dk4]

IIRC BA was first to pull a two finger salute to Qantas and its customers: when they unilaterally decided to stop allowing Qantas Club passengers to enter BA business class lounges, and to add insult - they appeared to not even tell Qantas that it was happening, with Qantas only finding out as its customers started complaining to QF that a benefit Qantas Club was still advertising, was not being delivered.

The result of this has been - QFs alliance with EK and very little inducement from QFF for its customers to fly BA.

***

And IMO it is BA that continues to add insult to the One World, especially the ethos that you treat the alliance's best J&Y customers (emerald) to all the perks of an F customer while on the ground at the terminal. First BA did this by creating lounges (CCR) for First Class passengers to use and not inviting alliance Emerald passengers to them as well AND now it is doing it by creating sections within its general lounges for First Class passengers and not inviting Emerald passengers to use those services as well.

 

[Awesom Andy]

Ah, someone's not happy about rules being changed and decides to join a forum to vent about it. Happens on every forum, I guess.

 

[Princess Fiona]

IIRC BA was first to pull a two finger salute to Qantas and its customers: when they unilaterally decided to stop allowing Qantas Club passengers to enter BA business class lounges, and to add insult - they appeared to not even tell Qantas that it was happening, with Qantas only finding out as its customers started complaining to QF that a benefit Qantas Club was still advertising, was not being delivered.

The result of this has been - QFs alliance with EK and very little inducement from QFF for its customers to fly BA.

***

And IMO it is BA that continues to add insult to the One World, especially the ethos that you treat the alliance's best J&Y customers (emerald) to all the perks of an F customer while on the ground at the terminal. First BA did this by creating lounges (CCR) for First Class passengers to use and not inviting alliance Emerald passengers to them as well AND now it is doing it by creating sections within its general lounges for First Class passengers and not inviting Emerald passengers to use those services as well.

Except your argument doesn't really hold water as BA don't allow their own Emeralds (except Premier/ CCR Card Holders) to access those lounges either. These lounges (and bar area at SIN) are separate to the OW lounges. BA does provide separate First/Emerald Lounges at both LHR and JFK which can only be accessed by OWE.

IMO QF is way out in front when it comes to penalizing its own members for flying other OW airlines at least as far as status retention is concerned. No-one else in OW is doing this.

 

[dk4]

Except your argument doesn't really hold water as BA don't allow their own Emeralds (except Premier/ CCR Card Holders) to access those lounges either. These lounges (and bar area at SIN) are separate to the OW lounges. BA does provide separate First/Emerald Lounges at both LHR and JFK which can only be accessed by OWE

Your argument is flawed IMO.

How an airline treats its own passengers is up to it, and is not part of the oneworld ethos. Following your logic completely - it would be fine for AA to deny lounge access to Emeralds (from other airlines on domestic AA flights) because it does not provide access to their own (executive platinum). (And in the North American market, Sky Team and Star Alliance allow the home carriers' "no lounge access rules" to apply, so it would be very simple for AA to do the same in oneworld, from a competitive perspective.) The ethos is NOT - treat other airlines FF status customers the same way you do your own FF status customers.

The oneworld concept is clear, on the ground at the terminal - treat other airlines Emerald customers that are not flying First Class, the same way you treat your own First Class* customers. (You can treat your own Emerald customers however you want though.)

The fact that BA attempts to get around this by naming another lounge "First Class", IMO shows BA's contempt for the oneworld philosophy. It is typical British bureaucratic bull. So I feel the need to repeat the concept again, it is quite simple - "what every you do for your own airline's First Class* customers on the ground at the terminal, you also do for Emerald customers from other airlines".

IMO QF is way out in front when it comes to penalizing its own members for flying other OW airlines at least as far as status retention is concerned. No-one else in OW is doing this.

IMO QF is way ahead of other airlines in its strategy, because it has realised the competitive disadvantage that an "alliance" business model represents to its commercial interests, and it has started to deal with it.

 

[Himeno]

The fact that BA attempts to get around this by naming another lounge "First Class", IMO shows BA's contempt for the oneworld philosophy. It is typical British bureaucratic bull. So I feel the need to repeat the concept again, it is quite simple - "what every you do for your own airline's First Class customers on the ground at the terminal, you also do for Emerald customers from other airlines".

Doesn't QR do the same?

1. American Airlines, US Airways and Qantas offer programmes enabling customers to pay to gain access to their lounges. These programmes are not part of the oneworld agreement, and members of these programmes are not entitled to access lounges under the oneworld agreement.
2. American Airlines AAdvantage® members and US Airways Dividend Miles members, regardless of their tier status or class of travel, are not eligible for lounge access when travelling solely on North American flights within or between the U.S., Canada, Mexico (except Mexico City), the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Caribbean. For more information, visit, Admirals Club Lounge | Airline Clubs And Lounges | American Airlines and http://www.usairways.com/en-US/traveltools/club/default.html
3. Qantas Frequent Flyer Gold members, regardless of their oneworld tier status, cannot access Qantas Domestic Business Lounges.
4. Qatar Airways Al Safwa and Al Mourjan lounges at Hamad International Airport in Doha and Qatar Airways Premium Lounge at London Heathrow Terminal 4 are excluded.
5. First and Business Class customers who do not hold Emerald or Sapphire tier status are not eligible to access American Airlines or US Airways lounges when travelling on solely domestic flights within the U.S. or between the U.S. and Canada, Mexico [except Mexico City], the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Caribbean; customers travelling in First or Business class on U.S. transcontinental flights between JFK-LAX, JFK-SFO and MIA-LAX (and vice-versa) are eligible for lounge access.
6. Guests are not permitted at Qatar Airways Al Safwa and Al Mourjan lounges at Hamad International Airport in Doha or Qatar Airways Premium Lounge at London Heathrow Terminal 4.

 

[dk4]

Doesn't QR do the same?

Is it no wonder that BA sponsored QR into oneworld!

Make no mistake, IAG is trying to redefine and subordinate oneworld interests, to its own. (Which is what I would do if I were them, so good on them. But Qantas must respond, and appears to have been doing so.)

 

[Princess Fiona]

Is it no wonder that BA sponsored QR into oneworld!

Make no mistake, IAG is trying to redefine and subordinate oneworld interests, to its own. (Which is what I would do if I were them, so good on them. But Qantas must respond, and appears to have been doing so.)

No what QF are doing is re-defining earn levels for OW travel for their own FF by making it harder for them to retain status by flying on all other OW airlines. This is IMO completely different to what BA have done by creating a separate tier of Concorde lounges for their own First Class guests. It is well known that BA still provide First Class (Emerald) Lounges, the same access as F passengers to priority boarding, check-in counters, priority baggage, security screening etc for OWE at all of the airports which have a CCR.
Neither strategies are particularly attractive to Qantas Elites but at least BA allows its own elites to travel on whichever airline they like within the Alliance and earn the same amount of Tier Points as they would on BA metal.

I think this was the point of the OP to be honest.
YMMV

 

[TonyHancock]

The oneworld concept is clear, on the ground at the terminal - treat other airlines Emerald customers that are not flying First Class, the same way you treat your own First Class customers. (You can treat your own Emerald customers however you want though.)

When you go into the QF SIN Lounge turn immediately left and then left again. You'll see an area to one side with four or five tables. Each one has a reserved sign on it. These tables are reserved for QF CL and P1 customers who also receive preferential treatment and food offerings that are not available to others in the lounge. So QF has created it's own, albeit rough and ready, version of the BA CCR. I guess the main difference is that BA openly promotes its CCR concept.

 

[dk4]

When you go into the QF SIN Lounge turn immediately left and then left again. You'll see an area to one side with four or five tables. Each one has a reserved sign on it. These tables are reserved for QF CL and P1 customers who also receive preferential treatment and food offerings that are not available to others in the lounge. So QF has created it's own, albeit rough and ready, version of the BA CCR. I guess the main difference is that BA openly promotes its CCR concept.

No, I disagree again (I am very disagreeable today aren't I). QF needs to treat other airlines Emeralds on the ground at the terminal, the same way it treats its bog standard First Class customers, which in SIN is...!?

I think that the next step we might see, particularly relevant for Singapore and Hong Kong, is for Qantas to bar QFF passengers from status based access to other lounges in terminals where QF operate their own lounges :arrow: :-|

I recognise that BA, operating in such a class based society, needs to offer "snob-level" exclusivity to its "top customers": And that some of Qantas "top customers" (defined in this example by their Emerald carrying cards) are not the "type" which some of BAs would like to fraternise with. And that BA also needs to deal with LHs FRA situation (where LH is not "restricted" by an alliance-wide Emerald level). But Qantas' top customers are Qantas' top customers - and Qantas needs to go in to bat for them, every day in every way.

On a tangent, as an alliance, perhaps the airlines need to come up with a common way to treat frequent flying F customers, but it is unlikely to happen because that may provide an opportunity for poaching. But I accept that lumping Bog Standard First Class passengers together with Frequent Flying Emeralds is mildly problematic, because even though they DO have a very similar financial value to an airline (profit $ per person per year), they have different customer service needs.

 

[TonyHancock]

No, I disagree again (I am very disagreeable today aren't I). QF needs to treat other airlines Emeralds on the ground at the terminal, the same way it treats its bog standard First Class customers, which in SIN is...!?

I think that the next step we might see, particularly relevant for Singapore and Hong Kong, is for Qantas to bar QFF passengers from status based access to other lounges in terminals where QF operate their own lounges :arrow: :-|

I recognise that BA, operating in such a class based society, needs to offer "snob-level" exclusivity to its "top customers": And that some of Qantas "top customers" (defined in this example by their Emerald carrying cards) are not the "type" which some of BAs would like to fraternise with. And that BA also needs to deal with LHs FRA situation (where LH is not "restricted" by an alliance-wide Emerald level). But Qantas' top customers are Qantas' top customers - and Qantas needs to go in to bat for them, every day in every way.

On a tangent, as an alliance, perhaps the airlines need to come up with a common way to treat frequent flying F customers, but it is unlikely to happen because that may provide an opportunity for poaching. But I accept that lumping Bog Standard First Class passengers together with Frequent Flying Emeralds is mildly problematic, because even though they DO have a very similar financial value to an airline (profit $ per person per year), they have different customer service needs.

...try booking a spa appointment at the QF F Lounge 24 hours in advance as a OWE flying in Y or J with QF....or any other OW airline for that matter. Oh and make sure you get the F host to escort you through immigration and security.

Take a look at the outpouring from GCH's on FT about the CCR Bar concept - it is really quite amusing.

 

[dk4]

...try booking a spa appointment at the QF F Lounge 24 hours in advance as a OWE flying in Y or J with QF....or any other OW airline for that matter.

What happens prior to reaching (and after departing) the terminal is not included in benefits, so in this example while Emeralds can't book before they arrive, they can still utilise the service, once they are there - if available.

Oh and make sure you get the F host to escort you through immigration and security.

Personally a host escort would only slow me down as I move through a known terminal. But I agree that it is a service that QF should "offer" to Emeralds from other airlines, perhaps not wait to be "requested". (The only time I have been "hosted" by QF through SYD T1, is when I missed a damn flight, and I was "hosted" out of the building. LOL)

Take a look at the outpouring from GCH's on FT about the CCR Bar concept - it is really quite amusing.

Note - I don't take issue with exclusive invitation only card based access to services.

 

[TonyHancock]

What happens prior to reaching (and after departing) the terminal is not included in benefits, ...

So seat selection gone then? There will be little quirks and oddities in each OW member program - it isn't perfect.

I think that what we are seeing is just a natural extension, created by an increased number of "elites" in OW programs.

People aspire to "exclusivity" and the airlines try to up the ante. How long will it be before platinum is replaced with Iridium at the top? How are those poor BA GCH's coping with only being Gold when they could be Diamonds or Platinums in other programs!!!

Sadly I understand that the CCR is nothing to write home about anyway and the CCR Bar in Singapore is a small room with a 32 person capacity and no windows. Just the place for the hordes of DSC mASA QF WP's to swarm to!!!! (Just covering a few contentious issues in a single sentence there!)

Lounges have got bigger and bigger to the point where they are practically barns with no exclusivity at all. Something has to give.

Sadly QF is a little too concerned about keeping its customers on a tight leash and "persuading" them not to fly with other OW airlines leaving little time to go into bat for them with OW.

Note - I don't take issue with exclusive invitation only card based access to services.

The GCH's are arguing pretty much the same as your good self. Perhaps those members of, now what were the words?,.....argh yes, "such a class based society" are not that different after all.


Oh and how is the chauffeur service working for you as a OWE flying Y with QF to LHR? ....technically it does fall within your parameters unless you need to narrow that down to "Entering the First Class check in area to departing the customs hall!)

 

[dk4]

Oh and how is the chauffeur service working for you as a OWE flying Y with QF to LHR? ....technically it does fall within your parameters...

No it doesn't. LOL. c'mon, at least give me something to bite at!