Downgraded from Business Class.

[Kangol]

I cant believe the way your folks were treated... Just opt for a charge back. I did that when QF canned Per-Sin and they rebooked me on JQ and refused to follow their own policy even after calling them a few times to go on MH. its like buying a 5 series bmw for 100k and getting a 3 series worth 50k and only getting 10k refund. What a crock.

What was the chargeback process like? ie total time taken, forms to fill out/sign, other documents to submit, etc..?

 

[BAM1748]

Further to EmilyP’s update below, our Customer Care team have since contacted her parents to personally discuss the circumstances, and have offered them a gesture of goodwill over and above our guidelines in recognition of the downgrade and overall unhappy experience.

As some have pointed out, overbooking flights is not exclusive to Qantas. Operational changes such as aircraft types and rolling delays can also play a part in such situations. Our estimates for cancellations and ‘no shows’ are occasionally lower than expected, which is what happened on this occasion. I fully appreciate that we’ve let Mr and Mrs EmilyP down, especially in the way this situation was handled.

Over and above the the guidelines, wonder what they might have been offered had it not appeared here on AFF.

Not exclusive to QF, but are you Red Roo saying that if someone else does something that justifies QF doing it as well? That is how your comment reads.

Not handled well at the airport, handle well by the cabin crew and not handled well here. The fare difference in full should be the minimum at the very least.

Matt

 

[vitagen]

I made a claim on the phone, they made a claim note, assessed and i answered some questions, provided whatever info they wanted, etickets, when i called etc. It was sorted within 4 weeks

 

[JohnK]

I was asked to be downgraded from J to Y for my HKG-MEL flight 3 times in the past 4 years ( I do about 5 of them every year). It was part of my TPE-MEL trip and I was offered 85% of my whole ticket cost (ok, it was a very cheap J ticket) + an Y seat with the adjacent one vacant.

Guess which airline it was.

Horse for courses?

Or should that be different people, similar situations, totally different results?

Just saying....

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I cant believe the way your folks were treated... Just opt for a charge back. I did that when QF canned Per-Sin and they rebooked me on JQ and refused to follow their own policy even after calling them a few times to go on MH. its like buying a 5 series bmw for 100k and getting a 3 series worth 50k and only getting 10k refund. What a crock.

I guess the issue with BMW's is that a 5 series & a 3 series are easily identifiable as such however on a flight the economy cabin covers a broad range of fares under one umbrella so you have the case where the pax sitting in seat 48C could have paid a sale fare, red-e-deal, flexi-saver etc etc.

I guess one thing people could do if booking a J class return fare eg AUD5,600.00 is get a print out of that fare off the ITA/Matrix website which gives a detailed breakdown of the fare component plus the individual taxes but as well as printing out the breakdown for J, I would also do a quote for the exact same flights for the cheapest economy fare on offer.

At least that way you'll know exactly the cost of the cheapest ticket you could've bought at the time. The $64,000 question though is what fare the airline deems is the appropriate economy fare for purposes of reassessing the fare to establish the refund due.

After reading about this unfortunate episode if I found myself in the same situation I would definitely opt for travel the next day still in the J cabin with the USD700.00 restitution unless they could get my a seat on another carrier I was happy with the same day. It would have to be a pretty good reason for me to want to accept the downgrade to travel in whY essentially for a J price. The OP's parents of course didn't have the benefit of reading an article such as this prior to the event.

 

[JohnK]

Very poorly handled situation by Qantas and seems to be getting worse with each call from customer care.

How can an airline calculate the difference for a downgrade as the difference between the fare paid on the day and the full economy fare at the time?

As QF16 is the last QF flight to depart LAX it's quite possible QF94 or QF12 were oversold with affected pax being transferred over to QF16 at the expense of the OP's parents.

If that is the case then I find that an appalling excuse on the part of Qantas. Oversell flights and move people onto later flights and deliberately bump people from those flights.

What makes no sense is how the passenger manifest has them sitting together in business class yet they are handed boarding passes for different seats in different cabins.

To me that sounds like someone is sneakily trying to cut corners and do someone a favour? Staff? Friends or relatives of staff?

 

[UpInTheAir:)]

Wow... I have learnt a lot from this post... (Normally I just look at the pictures)..
Thank you so much to EmilyP for sharing this story and continuing to keep us updated.
I (like others) am shocked and disturbed that people on paid J can be bumped.. I naively thought it could never happen! However like Princess Fiona I generally would take the next day flight and accommodation (generally there is nothing *that* urgent going on in my life).
I have found LAX ground crew average and on our last flight home we were the only people left in the airport at 2am and we just waited the ticketing staff out (refused to leave after attending all other desks in the airport including F lounge, complaints counter, etc) until we were ticketed later that day and given accommodation... having said that... this trip involved multiple AA stuff ups to miss AirNZ flights home resulting in QF compensation J flights the next day... so this does show the challenges involved in trying to accommodate passengers... even full fare paying J class passengers... that the airlines face.

Your post displays that anotomically large part of the kangaroo that, when used in Australian slang, suggests guts. You've got a big set of them for this post and I mean that with no sarcasm. Thanks for your involvement, particularly considering almost any response would have been met with some detractors.

Agree with Danger... and am impressed that Red Roo responded to the first post within 6 minutes!
Also impressed with the knowledge and sharing of the AFF members.
Well done all.

I'll go back to looking at the pictures now

 

[N860CR]

What a disgusting affair this has been. A total embarrassment to Qantas and the social media team has lost even more respect with that absolutely terrible press release style response from red roo.

Customer care has been Qantas' weak point for a very long time and their behavior here has been abysmal.

To the OP, vote with your feet like I have. If I travel overseas, the tail of the plane may be green, purple or blue - but it's sadly never red.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Here is the latest published table from QF on Involuntary Downgrade refund amounts.
I have to say it makes for fairly grim reading.
Anyone thinking that the refund is going to be anything like the difference in actual fare paid is in for a bit of a shock
http://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/FareRefundTable.pdf

 

[ermen]

Here is a suggestion (for Q to milk more money)...

Offer either
(i) discount for people who are willing to accept the small chance of being bumped
(ii) pay extra $$$ for seat guaranteed. Can't be bumped peace of mind.

I suspect (i) is better...

 

[JessicaTam]

<snip>
What makes no sense is how the passenger manifest has them sitting together in business class yet they are handed boarding passes for different seats in different cabins.

To me that sounds like someone is sneakily trying to cut corners and do someone a favour? Staff? Friends or relatives of staff?

JohnK, they were originally given 2 Y seats (no idea if they were together). At the gate there was a 'no show' so one of them was given an "op-up"* back to J.

*For want of a better word.

 

[Moody]

I understand that Qantas can't afford to open a Pandora's box by publicly "over-compensating" anyone who makes a complaint about being downgraded/bumped ... but by Red Roo's own admission the pax were given very poor service by their US agents.

It is much harder to canvass all pax to see who will accept a downgrade/bump than to just tell someone "stiff cheese", but that is what Qantas is at least morally required to do. They completely failed to do so and persisted in targeting one couple even after it became apparent that they had chosen the wrong victims.

The incident cannot be undone, but Qantas can make amends by refunding the entire return leg of the journey. Then they should re-acquaint all their agents with the correct protocol to follow, and make sure they are doing so.

Expensive? Yes. But the alternative has and will cost them more in the long run, judging by the interest here. I for one would be less likely to pay for J on Qantas, lest I be screwed over.

 

[vitagen]

If thats all they are refunding we should be entitled to purchase upgrades at that price too.... Friggin crock of ....

 

[JohnK]

JohnK, they were originally given 2 Y seats (no idea if they were together). At the gate there was a 'no show' so one of them was given an "op-up"* back to J.

*For want of a better word.

I realise that but the manifest having them both seated together in business class makes no sense.

Did all this happen so quickly they did not have time to reprint the manifest? Did not want to reprint the manifest? Ignored the manifest?

The truth from Qantas would be really nice but I don't think we are going to see that posted online.

 

[Topgunner]

First time poster, long time lurker. I have to say this situation and the other related stories from others confirms what we all experience, but frankly do not want to confront: unabated capitalism that enjoys disproportionte regulatory capture means faceless and large organizations are not really accountable to anyone to the detriment of consumers and society/the public. Not that the EU commission has it right, but they sort of have the right idea, without some knuckle rapping airlines will act at the lowest level of decency evil: Ryanair) and consumers are stuck to adhesion contracts/T&Cs without rational customer service, just look at most of the US aviation industry save SWA/LUV.

Overbooking is a necessary evil and we accept that as consumers and so do regulators for the health of the industry, but just as equally there needs to be a balancing force in the interest of consumers such that bait & switch or misleading practices do not end up 'legalized'. The optionality created by overbooking and IDB/IDG means airlines can essentially fill the cabins with early committed revenue and then ding each of those early purchasers with higher value passengers, with the only real consequence at present being token compensation. Outside of legislative force, there is nothing to tip the balance in favor of consumers over the airline oligopoly (especially in Oceania) and this is bad for consumers who are stuck with high fees, restrictive terms and no guaranteed seats. Overbooking shouldn't be a way for airlines to have a heads-they win and tails-they win and you lose.

For the affected travelers that spurred this post, and future victims, I think fair compensation should be the difference in fare between the class of service bought and one delivered using a fare basis with either similar or more restrictive terms (none of this using a Y fare that is fully flexible relative to a restricted C/J fare) available on the date of purchase. So, if you bought an I fare into C and on that date the comparative economy fare (adv purchase, routing, combinability, etc) was an O fare, then the day of travel you get bumped or downgraded the compensation is I-fare minus value of O-fare on date of purchase. It would be fair to all because if on that date the consumer made a purchase offer and the airline accepted it there were only full fare Y but I fare still available, the premium paid to travel on such date for such seat is lower than if there was an O fare. It also means airlines would have less incentive to bump the people that commit early to travel and pay accordingly in lieu of the lucrative last minute buyer. It is only fair because if I were to tell the airline listen I don't feel like traveling today and prefer tomorrow, they would bend me over the fare rules

 

[maninblack]

The story of the passenger manifest is interesting and indicates that they were a relatively last minute bumping possibly in favour of persons who were known to, or friends of the LAX ground staff. Something fishy here?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Here is the latest published table from QF on Involuntary Downgrade refund amounts.
I have to say it makes for fairly grim reading.
Anyone thinking that the refund is going to be anything like the difference in actual fare paid is in for a bit of a shock
http://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/FareRefundTable.pdf

As I said before - I would be very surprised if this refund table has any relevance to the passenger or is actually enforceable.

Did the passenger agree to the refund table at the time they purchased their ticket? No.

Did the passenger agree to the refund table at the time the downgrade took place? No.

Can a company only provide a partial refund if they fail to deliver a product or service as purchased? That would seem to be against our consumer protection laws?

 

[Pushka]

I said a few pages back that the manifest looked dodgy. And that as an "older couple" may have been selected as an "easy target" to bump if there were a lot of suits onboard.

As just posted, I wonder just who it was who ended up sitting in their manifested seats?

The issue with gaining access to the lounges would, if this was a nice story, be called the icing on the cake. But it's the straw. Well, I think maybe Customer Care in Australia that is the straw. The story keeps plumbing new lows.

We have an SA govt sponsored ad at the moment about the deregulation of Travel Agents. They talk of Insurance Policies and Credit card charge backs. They clearly state "get a credit card chargeback if you did not get what you paid for".

 

[get me outta here]

I wonder how a cc charge back works on a partial non delivery of paid service?

 

[TomVexille]

I wonder how a cc charge back works on a partial non delivery of paid service?

It is possible to do a partial charge back for the portion of the service that one does not receive. You can nominate to the bank exactly how much you want to charge back.