Why is Alan Joyce still Qantas' CEO?

[medhead]

Interesting to refer back to Post #2 where medhead plus some other posters here seem to suggest that like Turkeys Voting for Thanksgiving - the board and possibly large institutional shareholders also have some blame to share for QF's current position.

Rather than vote to be roasted and eaten, I'd say that he hasn't done so bad as to make them act. I'm sure they would act if his actions were more serious (towards the death of qantas group)

 

[ajw373]

Or are you suggesting that the board has told Joyce to alienate the qantas workforce and maintain the status quo?

Drivel cut out, not going to get into one of these arguments with you where you attempt to put words into my mouth and then turn them into an argument.

All I am saying is what you wrote was your opinion, nothing more nothing less, however the way you presented it made it sound like fact, when none of us here know if it is or isn't. End of debate with me on this subject.

 

[eastwest101]

I am saying no such thing, don't think I have expressed my PERSONAL view in this thread, and if I did I would make it clear it is my personal view. You (or me or I reckon anyone on this board) have no idea what so ever what Joyce has been paid by the board to do.

Sorry - not very clear in that post - but are you saying we dont know how much Alan Joyce is paid? Or what are his instructions/directions from the board? Or were you trying to say something else?

 

[eastwest101]

Its very lengthy but found a recent renumeration report with QF managements STIP and LTIP (Short term incentive and long term incentive plan) buried in here:

http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/corporateGovernance/ExecRemuneration2013.pdf


The Short Term Incentives are interesting enough, what are peoples opinions in how these have/have not been acheived?

 

[ajw373]

Sorry - not very clear in that post - but are you saying we dont know how much Alan Joyce is paid? Or what are his instructions/directions from the board? Or were you trying to say something else?

What his specific instructions are... (not the whishy washy stuff above)

 

[medhead]

Drivel cut out, not going to get into one of these arguments with you where you attempt to put words into my mouth and then turn them into an argument.

All I am saying is what you wrote was your opinion, nothing more nothing less, however the way you presented it made it sound like fact, when none of us here know if it is or isn't. End of debate with me on this subject.

Drivel? Why did you even reply at all, if that's the case? To drivel?

All I'm saying is that my position is based on observable fact. Your failure to divert from that situation with baiting comments is your problem. Yes it is the end of your usually attempt to put words into my mouth. Don't bother starting if you have nothing of substance to add.

 

[anat0l]

Rather than vote to be roasted and eaten, I'd say that he hasn't done so bad as to make them act. I'm sure they would act if his actions were more serious (towards the death of qantas group)

So suffice to say there doesn't seem to be enough predominant opinion amongst the "powers that be" (so to speak) that the airline is headed for death. The latest climate in the airline and industry would suggest that Qantas is starting to fabricate the coffin and finding the nails for it. In fact, this board frequently opines that the group is already on a trajectory for death; some concede it is already as good as dead.

Maybe those powers are also of the opinion on the current Qantas CEO's opinion that the playing field isn't level and the government needs to intervene, and they are relying on this affirmative action before setting the next bar (an admittedly passive position all around).

To tie it back to my original question, it still seems bizarre how much one man can be hated so much and yet still be "protected" by an (unimportant) few. You expect this kind of thing in western political systems, but for public companies (especially with significant exposure) you'd think that there'd be a lot more impact based on public sway. I guess unlike in Japan - where CEOs have some honour and resign or commit suicide - those principles are lacking in western societies.

But the net result is that Joyce is still the CEO not solely on the power of himself wanting that position alone. It must be either some other controlling forces that has some unexplained faith in his ability to lead the group, or there's something about the operation of Qantas that is not clear from frontline experiences, market stats and experts, and the media (unlikely, since at AFF we seem to have a really good finger on the pulse). Maybe the position of Qantas at the moment is "artificially" exacerbated by market forces beyond its reasonable control. Maybe - as some seem to argue - Joyce may not look like he's doing a good job, but given the inherent mess he had to manage, he's doing alright based on that benchmark (hence no decent reason to fire him; similar to we can't really criticise the current federal government for any fiscal irresponsibility because anything they are doing right now is trying to undo the supposed quagmire imposed upon the Australian national economy by the previous government).

I could also buy medhead's "ostrich in the sand" argument of the rest of the board (we made a mistake, but if we get rid of Joyce we'll concede our utter incompetence), or trippin_the_rift's "no one else wants the job" argument (I guess the better question would then be who should be installed as the CEO?)

 

[medhead]

What his specific instructions are... (not the whishy washy stuff above)

As I said we don't need to know his specific instructions. We can see his actions. Oh but apparently that little point, that kills your argument is drivel. Again are you suggesting that Joyce is undertaking public actions that are contrary to his instructions?

 

[Sprucegoose]

No love lost with long term Qantas staff. They feel he never allowed the airline to compete with Asia's 5 stars and sold out to Emirates.

 

[zachary.august]

Ahem. Many would say that, at least as far as QFi is concerned, it is a rump carrier.

Ahem. I said 'even more', expressing my acknowledgement of QF's less than idea fate and concurrently expressing thankfulness at management for preventing it's presence to be further reduced. QF stills flies to every inhabited continent on Earth, I really wouldn't call that a small operation! Especially, with the level of safety and relative efficiency that it is conducted with.

 

[ajw373]

Drivel? Why did you even reply at all, if that's the case? To drivel?

All I'm saying is that my position is based on observable fact. Your failure to divert from that situation with baiting comments is your problem. Yes it is the end of your usually attempt to put words into my mouth. Don't bother starting if you have nothing of substance to add.

Sounds like you were looking in a mirror when you wrote the above. As for observable fact, provide some hard evidence to back this up then you might be believed. Without that, it is just opinion, which of course isn't a bad thing, we all have them, we all express them.

 

[Isochronous]

Despite all the deathriding I find the QF service has actually improved in the last 2 years significantly, and I've been a regular QF flyer since AN collapsed in 2001. I think there are changes filtering through but the revolution isn't won in a day.

 

[eastwest101]

Despite all the deathriding I find the QF service has actually improved in the last 2 years significantly, and I've been a regular QF flyer since AN collapsed in 2001. I think there are changes filtering through but the revolution isn't better customer servicewon in a day.

I agree - I have seen some improvements in QF customer service as well, but in my opinion I suspect it has more to do with the competition from other airlines both domestically and internationally rather than Alan Joyce going around encouraging better customer service. So yes there is good customer service out there in QF but I say its despite Alan Joyce's efforts and certainly not because of them....

 

[Isochronous]

I agree - I have seen some improvements in QF customer service as well, but in my opinion I suspect it has more to do with the competition from other airlines both domestically and internationally rather than Alan Joyce going around encouraging better customer service. So yes there is good customer service out there in QF but I say its despite Alan Joyce's efforts and certainly not because of them....

Well, are you telling me that during AJ's time as CEO there have been no changes to customer service training?

I flew QF during the Dixon era but I would also sometimes fly Virgin domestically and usually used Asian carriers for international flights. I remember the QF service to LAX when I flew them internationally for just the second time to be very mediocre. Nowadays I find international service very good.

 

[anat0l]

I agree - I have seen some improvements in QF customer service as well, but in my opinion I suspect it has more to do with the competition from other airlines both domestically and internationally rather than Alan Joyce going around encouraging better customer service. So yes there is good customer service out there in QF but I say its despite Alan Joyce's efforts and certainly not because of them....

To add another dimension to the argument, has the customer service improved over time despite AJ's efforts but not worsened due to AJ?

 

[castie]

To add another dimension to the argument, has the customer service improved over time despite AJ's efforts but not worsened due to AJ?

If something goes wrong hes to blame.
If something goes right then it goes right despite of him.

Sounds like a bone to pick with him rather than results.


On the competition with Asian carriers the customer service is no where close to SQ. (My main experience)
Customer service is down to your staff and their attitude.
I have flown SYD-SIN on both carriers roughly 8/10 times each over the last three years. (Y mainly)

The Qantas crew are no where to be seen after meal service even when using the call button. Once even got lectured for going into the galley. (No one had come over to me for 45 mins since I pressed the call button.)
On SQ I never waited more than 10 minutes for a drink/snack after pressing the button. ( Of course outside of meal service times )

So in my opinion any staff that say AJ has not allowed them to compete with Asian carriers need to have a reality check.
You can teach people service but cannot teach them attitude and the failing I have seen this year on a regular basis all seem to be down to the crews work attitude rather than training.

 

[maninblack]

Joyce and Clifford were both appointed, one by the board and the other by the shareholders as Union busters but they have forgotten to run the airline and have made too many bad calls. Board is largely clueless in my opinion. Shake up required and soon.

 

[Melburnian1]

You can teach people service but cannot teach them attitude and the failing I have seen this year on a regular basis all seem to be down to the crews work attitude rather than training.

It is a generalisation and there will be exceptions, but Caucasian Australians do not deliver service well. Most Asians are simply better at it, and know how to attend to passengers' needs without being too obsequious.

castie's observation ranks highly among the reasons why QF has steadily lost custom on its international flights.

As a regular F and J patron said to me (and the individual is someone who chooses QFi 40 per cent of the time), 'waddya ya want' or an implied 'I'm doing you a favour by serving you a drink from the galley even though you are interrupting me' is all too often the attitude of QF staff.

 

[maninblack]

It is a generalisation and there will be exceptions, but Caucasian Australians do not deliver service well. Most Asians are simply better at it, and know how to attend to passengers' needs without being too obsequious.

castie's observation ranks highly among the reasons why QF has steadily lost custom on its international flights.

As a regular F and J patron said to me (and the individual is someone who chooses QFi 40 per cent of the time), 'waddya ya want' or an implied 'I'm doing you a favour by serving you a drink from the galley even though you are interrupting me' is all too often the attitude of QF staff.

I don't know about the Asian thing. I think they vary too but are not grumpy, resentful and snippy like the staff on QFi who mostly lumber around like the customers owe them a favour. A few friends who have now flown a bit on EK say that they are elitist and rude especially the male FA's so put them together with QF and you have a winning combination.

 

[anat0l]

It is a generalisation and there will be exceptions, but Caucasian Australians do not deliver service well. Most Asians are simply better at it, and know how to attend to passengers' needs without being too obsequious.

castie's observation ranks highly among the reasons why QF has steadily lost custom on its international flights.

As a regular F and J patron said to me (and the individual is someone who chooses QFi 40 per cent of the time), 'waddya ya want' or an implied 'I'm doing you a favour by serving you a drink from the galley even though you are interrupting me' is all too often the attitude of QF staff.

So the solution would seem to sack all the Caucasian staff and employ races with known good customer service repute?

FWIW it would be a real shame if it came to that, because the gems (irrespective of culture or race) in the company are truly amongst the best in the world. As I say often, if someone could make a robot modelled off a SQ FA, they would be filthy rich. But when QF get it right, they are the best because their FAs do so most naturally, viz. closest to how a real human behaves. Of course, if people want genuflecting robots, then so be it....


Anyway this has little to do with Joyce being the CEO, and it seems to imply an inherent problem with QF that requires drastic transformation more than institutional change.