Why does the QF1/2 A380 sit in LHR all day?

[exLXCXFF]

As per headline, was this question ever answered? Is it due to crew rest rosters, slot restrictions in LHR/SIN, curfew fears in SYD or something else/a combination of it?

I would think that parking fees are whopping every day…

 

[serfty]

Qantas wouldn’t do it if they could not make a profit.

However, back a few years they had A380 for both MEL and SYD and there was some interleaving.

 

[RichardMEL]

I believe this is slot related, plus of course the timing of the return flight suits better to pick up connections in LHR and then SIN, and to allow for connections ex-SYD on arrival. If one departed LHR at say 0900 or something you'd arrive in SIN early the next morning, not good for connections, though a day flight SIN-SYD would probably be prefperred by some to get in the target timezone, it also does not allow for connections out of SYD - the morning arrival of QF2 into SYD then allows for many domestic connections so the timings for the departure of the 2 are specific.

 

[AIRwin]

it also does not allow for connections out of SYD

Nor connections out of SIN to BNE/MEL/PER

 

[SYD]

For a period the old QF 31/32 had some interesting timings departing LHR much earlier and then a day flight SIN-SYD - bliss!

 

[OATEK]

For a period the old QF 31/32 had some interesting timings departing LHR much earlier and then a day flight SIN-SYD - bliss!

Remember it well.

 

[jpp42]

A similar situation exists for other longhaul flights - SYD-HND and HND-SYD have always been overnight in both directions (and NRT before HND was available) , resulting in a longhaul capable plane (B747 and now A330) sitting there for nearly 18 hours a day. This is a combination of slot availability in HND (generally much freer at night) and a Japanese market phenomenon of preferring overnight flights to avoid "wasting" a business day. Most other Asia destinations have northbound in the daytime, southbound overnight to improve fleet utilisation.

Similarly, A380's and B787's sometimes have long sits in LAX. Similar to the QF1/2 setup, it makes better sense for connections, for each flight to arrive at LAX and the Australian capitals in the early morning (noting Sydney's curfew also plays a role). This is one reason Qantas operates a large maintenance base in LAX as they can at least do maintenance during all this downtime. It was also a reason that the tag flight to JFK was operated for many years even though it often wasn't full - the aircraft was going to be unused anyway and could get all the way to JFK and back before the late evening departure. Note: the evening SYD-LAX departure (QF17, when it operates), works better for fleet utilisation but it has many fewer connections in LAX so it is only a supplement to QF11/QF12. (I will note that QF11 operated on a much later schedule when it initially resumed after the pandemic, but it moved back to the traditional late morning departure.)

 

[jrfsp]

For a period the old QF 31/32 had some interesting timings departing LHR much earlier and then a day flight SIN-SYD - bliss!

There was even a connection to PER QF72!

 

[jb747]

As per headline, was this question ever answered? Is it due to crew rest rosters, slot restrictions in LHR/SIN, curfew fears in SYD or something else/a combination of it?

Crew rest rosters have nothing to do with it. They are built to fit the schedules. QF also has plenty of London slots. There was a time when we had multiple 747 and 380 arrivals each day.

Curfews are a huge issue. In general, you can neither arrive, nor depart from London/Sydney before 0600 or after about 2300. The elapsed time from Sydney to London is roughly 24 hours (a little less, but close enough). That means for an arrival at 0600, the earliest that you can depart Sydney is 0600UTC the previous day, which is 4pm. Your next constraint would the the Sydney curfew, which means the latest take off would be 2300, for an eta in London of about 1300. The curfew ends at 0600, so I guess that if you wanted to depart in the morning, you'd have about a 3 hour window from 0600 to about 0900, giving you evening arrivals in London from about 8pm to 11pm. In this scenario, you'd end up with an aircraft overnighting at both ends.

Anyway, you can keep playing with the times, but the upshot is that the effect of curfews at both ends, severely constrains the possible timing pairs. Of course, if you can manage to depart from other than Sydney, the restrictions are less onerous, and that is how the 29/30 used to work (via HKG). Add in to all of this the desire for connections for passengers both joining and leaving and the cost of parking in London may well be the least of your issues.

 

[NM]

So to clarify, based on current timezones and @jb747's noting of approx 24 hours elapsed time for a one-stop SYD-LHR flight, to arrive after the LHR 0600 curfew ends the departure from SYD must be after 1600 Sydney time. So there is a bit of a sliding window for afternoon/evening departure from SYD that will make for morning arrival into LHR with some buffer for small delays.

For the return, arrival after 0600 into SYD means a departure from LHR after 2000 London time. If you leave LHR any time earlier than 2000, you will arrive into SYD before the night curfew has ended.

Note these times vary by one/two hours based on NSW and UK daylight saving time windows.

So unless you have somewhere else to operate LHR-xx_-LHR during that time, its park and wait time for the aircraft until some time after 8pm.

 

[RichardMEL]

Project Sunrise will alter this a little bit with elapsed times of 20-21ish hours iirc so the windows can change a little bit, but probably not that much imo. After all, QF would probably want to time them to arrive in LHR/SYD for a full day (both for work reasons and connections) so those will dictate the departures at each end (you're just not worrying about a stop in SIN or other place).

Side note - QF10 departs lunchtime ex LHR and arrives similar timing in PER. Of course this sector has different objectives - eg connections ex- PER work to places in WA, even DRW, ADL etc which work out better than going via QF2.

 

[serfty]

Crew rest rosters have nothing to do with it. They are built to fit the schedules. QF also has plenty of London slots. There was a time when we had multiple 747 and 380 arrivals each day.

I recall coming across some story that at one stage Qantas had more slots that it could then use at LHR but had to actually operate a minimum of them. IIRC, they had something like a 146 operating short flights in order to retain the slots.

 

[Rangalad]

So to clarify, based on current timezones and @jb747's noting of approx 24 hours elapsed time for a one-stop SYD-LHR flight, to arrive after the LHR 0600 curfew ends the departure from SYD must be after 1600 Sydney time. So there is a bit of a sliding window for afternoon/evening departure from SYD that will make for morning arrival into LHR with some buffer for small delays.

For the return, arrival after 0600 into SYD means a departure from LHR after 2000 London time. If you leave LHR any time earlier than 2000, you will arrive into SYD before the night curfew has ended.

Note these times vary by one/two hours based on NSW and UK daylight saving time windows.

So unless you have somewhere else to operate LHR-xx_-LHR during that time, its park and wait time for the aircraft until some time after 8pm.

Pre COVID, QF 747s operated a number of charters from/to LHR to meet cruise ships.

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2022

I recall coming across some story that at one stage Qantas had more slots that it could then use at LHR but had to actually operate a minimum of them. IIRC, they had something like a 146 operating short flights in order to retain the slots.

Up to MAN and back. It kept the LHR slots “warm”.

 

[NM]

Pre COVID, QF 747s operated a number of charters from/to LHR to meet cruise ships.

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2022

Up to MAN and back. It kept the LHR slots “warm”.

Not just 747s

 

[NM]

Project Sunrise will alter this a little bit with elapsed times of 20-21ish hours iirc so the windows can change a little bit, but probably not that much imo. After all, QF would probably want to time them to arrive in LHR/SYD for a full day (both for work reasons and connections) so those will dictate the departures at each end (you're just not worrying about a stop in SIN or other place).

Side note - QF10 departs lunchtime ex LHR and arrives similar timing in PER. Of course this sector has different objectives - eg connections ex- PER work to places in WA, even DRW, ADL etc which work out better than going via QF2.

So if we change the operating flight time to 20 hours, that makes the earliest departure from SYD to be 2000 (8pm) Sydney time for a 0600 arrival into LHR.

And earliest departure from LHR would be midnight for arrival into SYD at 0600, but that is during LHR departure curfew. So will need to wait until at least 0600 LHR time, meaning SYD arrival around midday. So departure window from LHR would be 0600 to 1600 for SYD arrival between 1200 and 2200. So if an early morning arrival into LHR (say pre 0900) can turn around in about 3 hours for arround midday or early afternoon departure and 1800-2000 SYD arrival might work.

 

[Melburnian1]

So if an early morning arrival into LHR (say pre 0900) can turn around in about 3 hours for around midday or early afternoon departure and 1800-2000 SYD arrival might work.

In theory, that should work just fine.

In practice, however, QFi has so much late running, way worse than almost all competitors, the question would arise 'how often would the southeast bound flight not arrive Sydney prior to the nightly curfew?'

If this occurred, passengers could find themselves in Melbourne or Brisbane for the night. An adventure for some, but an annoyance or worse for businessmen.

 

[gethsemene]

Also, if there are delays they trigger UK261 which at $900/passenger in compensation would get pricey…
12hrs of parking time buys a lot of wiggle room, for example today they’re switching bodies to get yesterday’s in the air before todays flight

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

But SYD airport also has the dreaded curfew, so if its an ETA of 20.00, but the plane is late, after midnight, its an expensive measure for the airline to cut the curfew, and pay the fine.

 

[clifford]

An adventure for some, but an annoyance or worse for businessmen.

Not an adventure for anyone really.

 

[Rangalad]

But SYD airport also has the dreaded curfew, so if its an ETA of 20.00, but the plane is late, after midnight, its an expensive measure for the airline to cut the curfew, and pay the fine.

Remember the time (pre-COVID) Emirates decided to take off after 2300.
Wonder if they were ever billed?