When awards points Business Class really means Economy

[JDL]

There seems to be some difficulties creeping in that I have not seen before in trying to use points to book BC. On Syd-LAX or Syd-NXC even when you can find a date showing BC or even PE seats available, when you get to the point of flight selection these seats have an <!> above them which indicates that you will actually be flying PE or E on one or more of the sectors, sometimes the whole way. If you are prepared to accept a 14 hour extension via Hong Kong then there is a little more flexibility on CX flights but otherwise it seems to me almost all direct flight BC seats are now only available if you are prepared to pay. Anybody else experienced this or have a comment?

 

[Limewood]

Its about time if they don't have a J seat then it should not show at all.

 

[oz_mark]

It's an issue that has been noticed by a number of people over quite a period of time. Here's a selection of threads (be thankful for the <!> though, that is a relatively recent innovation!)

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....r-program/booking-qf-ffp-trip-long-41102.html
http://www.australianfrequentflyer..../booking-award-flights-with-qantas-32145.html
http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/qantas-frequent-flyer-program/qff-redemption-ripoff-business-cost-34204.html

 

[dajop]

Its about time if they don't have a J seat then it should not show at all.

It's not so straight forward as that, as many people would want to options that include short haul Y seats. Nobody wants to see a J award displayed when it is MEL-SYD(J), SYD-LAX (Y), but most would want to see a J award displayed when it is MEL-SYD(Y), SYD-LAX (J).

 

[JDL]

There seems to be some difficulties creeping in that I have not seen before in trying to use points to book BC. On Syd-LAX or Syd-NXC even when you can find a date showing BC or even PE seats available, when you get to the point of flight selection these seats have an <!> above them which indicates that you will actually be flying PE or E on one or more of the sectors, sometimes the whole way. If you are prepared to accept a 14 hour extension via Hong Kong then there is a little more flexibility on CX flights but otherwise it seems to me almost all direct flight BC seats are now only available if you are prepared to pay. Anybody else experienced this or have a comment?

I have taken this up with Qantas in the way I have had good results before. Publicly on Twitter. If you Tweet a complaint using #Qantas or @QFcustomercare they will respond openly very quickly to negative feedback as Twitter is closely monitored. It's worth a try especially if you have a hook as I do - the Disability Discrimination Act.

 

[mannej]

I have taken this up with Qantas in the way I have had good results before. Publicly on Twitter. If you Tweet a complaint using #Qantas or @QFcustomercare they will respond openly very quickly to negative feedback as Twitter is closely monitored. It's worth a try especially if you have a hook as I do - the Disability Discrimination Act.

How is the availability of business reward seats related to the Disability Discrimination Act?

 

[Comoman]

Surely it's almost fraudulent. "Selling" a business class round trip ticket at full "fare" knowing full well that a portion of this trip will not be in business class and they are unable to deliver. Like Apple selling a "4G" Ipad knowing full well the 4G wouldn't work in Australia. The ACCC sorted that one out. If a round trip is not available then don't charge for it.

Dodgy in my opinion.

 

[mannej]

Surely it's almost fraudulent. "Selling" a business class round trip ticket at full "fare" knowing full well that a portion of this trip will not be in business class and they are unable to deliver. Like Apple selling a "4G" Ipad knowing full well the 4G wouldn't work in Australia. The ACCC sorted that one out. If a round trip is not available then don't charge for it.

Dodgy in my opinion.

It is deceptive. However the T&C's for the QFF Program have the provision for these mixed class awards in them.

That being the case still doesn't make it fair.

 

[oz_mark]

Surely it's almost fraudulent. "Selling" a business class round trip ticket at full "fare" knowing full well that a portion of this trip will not be in business class and they are unable to deliver. Like Apple selling a "4G" Ipad knowing full well the 4G wouldn't work in Australia. The ACCC sorted that one out. If a round trip is not available then don't charge for it.

Not really like Apple. It may look a bit dodgy, but the booking engine does disclose exactly what you are getting.

 

[Comoman]

I know it's old ground but charging the same points for a combo ticket as a full business ticket is not right IMHO.

 

[JDL]

How is the availability of business reward seats related to the Disability Discrimination Act?

It is not the availability of Business Class seats that is under scrutiny here, it is the process of advising people they are available when actually they are not. Some people, like myself cannot fly long haul in Y seats without risk of further injury. So when I attempt to book J seats only to discover I am actually being asked to pay J seat points for Y seats it is a form of smoke and mirrors that is similar to promising a wheelchair user that a building they want to go to is accessible, only to arrive at the building to discover a flight of stairs and no lift. Definitely not in line with the DDA imo.

 

[NM]

Surely it's almost fraudulent. "Selling" a business class round trip ticket at full "fare" knowing full well that a portion of this trip will not be in business class and they are unable to deliver. Like Apple selling a "4G" Ipad knowing full well the 4G wouldn't work in Australia. The ACCC sorted that one out. If a round trip is not available then don't charge for it.

Dodgy in my opinion.

Especially when, in many cases, it would cost less points to buy the two legs as two separate awards - the long-haul as an economy award and the short-haul as a business class award.

For example, if showing as a business class award SYD-LAX where SYD-BNE is in business class and BNE-LAX is in economy, the SYD-LAX award cost would be 96,000 points. But SYD-BNE in business plus BNE-LAX in economy would only cost 16,000 + 48,000 = 64,000. Same seats, just booked as two awards instead of one. Naturally, anyone in their right mind (and willing to travel trans-Pacific in economy) would just book it as economy all the way for 48,000 points.

 

[11sjw]

It's not so straight forward as that, as many people would want to options that include short haul Y seats. Nobody wants to see a J award displayed when it is MEL-SYD(J), SYD-LAX (Y), but most would want to see a J award displayed when it is MEL-SYD(Y), SYD-LAX (J).

Searching each leg separately in Multi-city view might help with that.

 

[oz_mark]

It is not the availability of Business Class seats that is under scrutiny here, it is the process of advising people they are available when actually they are not. Some people, like myself cannot fly long haul in Y seats without risk of further injury. So when I attempt to book J seats only to discover I am actually being asked to pay J seat points for Y seats it is a form of smoke and mirrors that is similar to promising a wheelchair user that a building they want to go to is accessible, only to arrive at the building to discover a flight of stairs and no lift. Definitely not in line with the DDA imo.

Except that you aren't arriving for the flight to discover you are in Y. The booking engine is disclosing this before you even book.

The mechanism for telling you is much better than it used to be.

 

[moa999]

And also some people want these options shown, eg for multi-city, one-world awards where the cost of the ticket even with a downgraded segment is cheaper than individual.

Not an easy solution.
But Qantas does disclose it with a big ! mark, and subsequent flight details which clearly show flights are in Economy.
You can hardly argue they are being misleading.

 

[dajop]

Searching each leg separately in Multi-city view might help with that.

It helps but can be a pain going through the different number of combinations ... a better approach is to search on different single (long haul) sectors then go back to the multisector when you have the answer. Take as example MEL-JFK.... currently you could have MEL-SYD-JFK, MEL-LAX-JFK, MEL-SYD-LAX-JFK, MEL-BNE-LAX-JFK, MEL-SYD-DFW-JFK, MEL-SYD-NRT-JFK, etc and as of April, probably even MEL-DXB-JFK, MEL-PER-DXB-JFK etc sectors are probably still acceptable alternatives. No easy solution. I think the current <!> is much better than before.

 

[Kangol]

It's not so straight forward as that, as many people would want to options that include short haul Y seats. Nobody wants to see a J award displayed when it is MEL-SYD(J), SYD-LAX (Y), but most would want to see a J award displayed when it is MEL-SYD(Y), SYD-LAX (J).

Not to mention int PE or F flights with domestic connections - since there are no dom PE or F services, then basically you won't be able to see any results for PE/F going by the aforementioned proposal.

It is not the availability of Business Class seats that is under scrutiny here, it is the process of advising people they are available when actually they are not. Some people, like myself cannot fly long haul in Y seats without risk of further injury. So when I attempt to book J seats only to discover I am actually being asked to pay J seat points for Y seats it is a form of smoke and mirrors that is similar to promising a wheelchair user that a building they want to go to is accessible, only to arrive at the building to discover a flight of stairs and no lift. Definitely not in line with the DDA imo.

Whilst it may be "sneaky", the booking engine clearly states what you will be paying for (eg one sector J, the other Y) and you have to agree to the terms before purchasing. It is technically impossible to not have the opportunity to see those details online.

Re first bold selection: it actually doesn't occur, specifically it does not advise you that there are seats available in the same class for all sectors in your selected itinerary.
Re second bold selection: again, that is not what the system is asking. In your example it is asking you to pay J points for a combination of J and Y seats.

Whilst I empathise with your situation, the shortfalls of the booking system do not absolve you from any responsibility in being careful before you purchase flights that clearly outline the terms. Well, they are only clear if you read them. If you choose not to read them, of course they won't be clear :!:

Searching each leg separately in Multi-city view might help with that.

Tried that myself, can't seem to get the multi-city to do that for an ASA. Classic - yes, ASA - no. Would love to see how you are doing it

 

[mannej]

It is not the availability of Business Class seats that is under scrutiny here, it is the process of advising people they are available when actually they are not. Some people, like myself cannot fly long haul in Y seats without risk of further injury. So when I attempt to book J seats only to discover I am actually being asked to pay J seat points for Y seats it is a form of smoke and mirrors that is similar to promising a wheelchair user that a building they want to go to is accessible, only to arrive at the building to discover a flight of stairs and no lift. Definitely not in line with the DDA imo.

I still don't see how it is discrimination. Going by the QF seat maps, all aisle seats apart from front row and exit seats are accessible.

Misleading yes. Discrimination no.

Technically, don't most passengers risk injury flying long haul Y?

 

[medhead]

It is deceptive. However the T&C's for the QFF Program have the provision for these mixed class awards in them.

That being the case still doesn't make it fair.

The QFF program T&Cs only deal with how to charge for such booking. They don't, for example, reserve the right to sell a mix class award.

 

[11sjw]

It is not the availability of Business Class seats that is under scrutiny here, it is the process of advising people they are available when actually they are not. Some people, like myself cannot fly long haul in Y seats without risk of further injury. So when I attempt to book J seats only to discover I am actually being asked to pay J seat points for Y seats it is a form of smoke and mirrors that is similar to promising a wheelchair user that a building they want to go to is accessible, only to arrive at the building to discover a flight of stairs and no lift. Definitely not in line with the DDA imo.

But the little "!", if it appears, advises only one or some of the legs are in J. How can that be seen as misleading?