What to do if my flight has been downgraded on Qantas??

[jrm27]

Hello all, please excuse me if this is the wrong place to post.. I'm still new! The description of this sub forum included the "hard questions" of "general travel", so I thought I should start here.

A few months ago, due very much in part to the wonderful information and advice I received here, I booked two round trip tickets from Los Angeles to Sydney on flights Q11 and Q12. According to my original email confirmation, a Qantas rep, and plenty of other people here; the flight was originally booked on the airbus A380. I needed to make sure we booked two tickets on that plane specifically for the in-flight power available at every seat. An associate I am traveling with and I plan to do a lot of work on our laptops while airborne, thus we built our travel schedule around flying on the A380. There were cheaper flights on United/V Australia/etc... but we didn't mind paying a little extra to experience Qantas and to have our power needs met.

I called Qantas today to see if our seats had been blocked yet, and indeed they had. They then proceeded to confirm that the flights would no longer be on the A380, but instead on a 747. Since we are flying in the coach cabin, we no longer have access to power for our laptops either flying to Sydney or returning to LA as the 747 doesn't offer that feature. This definitely throws a kink in our travel schedule because we had a lot to do work-wise on the plane.

The only options that Qantas gave us was to rebook for a different day when the A380 might be flying, or to pay to upgrade out tickets to business class. Both options are an impossibility as neither of us can travel on different days, nor can we afford to upgrade our tickets. The Qantas agent said that we are basically SOL.

Has this happened to anyone else? Can anyone offer any advice on how I can get Qantas to work with us? Even a discounted upgrade fair would be helpful, but the agent I spoke with wasn't willing to budge in that way. Any ideas? Any experiences? Thanks!

So bummed to not be flying on the a380....

 

[Dave Noble]

That they allowed you to change the date was more than they needed to do. There is no guarantee of any specific aircraft operating the flight

If you cannot fly any other day, then I would be planning to enjoy the 744

Dave

 

[MelUser]

This is not a flight downgrade as the title suggests but merely an aircraft change.

As harsh as this might sound, it happens all the time in the airline world.

You are paying the airline to get you from Point A to Point B.

 

[one9]

Whilst most people hear will tell you bad luck as the terms and conditions allow Qantas to change the plane, there is more to it than that.

You may have a valid argument for a refund according to the Trade Practices Act but this would depend on how you were informed that you were flying on an A380.

If Qantas provided marketing materials to you saying that you would be flying on an A380 and they did not make it clear in the marketing material that the aircraft could change, then this would be a valid reason for a refund as it is not enough for a company to point to major exclusions simply in their terms and conditions. They need to make it appropriately clear on the marketing material.

Similarly if you asked the operator before you booked if the flight was on an A380 and they say yes, and they did not inform you that the aircraft could change, this MIGHT be a case of misleading information provided to you on the product.

It may be worth clearly understanding the misleading practices parts of the Trade Practices Act to see if you believe you have a case and then carefully arguing along these lines.

There is no clear answer one way or the other to see if you have valid grounds for a refund. You would need to examine the material that you relied on in making your purchasing decision.

 

[NM]

Maybe you need to purchase an extra battery for your laptop. Note that QF12 departs LAX very late at night. Assuming your body is on USA time, you are likely to want to eat and then get some sleep before waking later in the flight to use the laptop. So for a 14 hour flight, you cannot use the laptop during ascent or decent (say 40 mins), and assuming two meal services in economy (say 1 our each) and some sleep following the late night departure (say 4 hours), you are down to about 7 hours of potential laptop use. Most modern laptops can get that operating time from two batteries if charged before boarding.

Otherwise there is not much else you can do about it.

 

[harvyk]

Hate to say it but there is nothing that you can do about change of equipment. Even if you where not specifically told about that fact that QF can change the plane at a moments notice their terms and conditions which are automatically attached to every ticket sold specifically says they can.

Sometimes these changes can work in your favour, other times they work against you. Really there is nothing you can do about it.

Also one9, whilst I am not a lawyer, I have worked with one in regards to automatically attaching T&C's to all sales, as I have a set of T&C's in my business which protect my rear-end from getting sued. Unless the airline has specifically guaranteed that it will be an A380 flying and specifically provided in writing that there is no possibility of a change of equipment (which no self-respecting TA would do) you may be able to make a claim stick, provided QF T&C did not prevent such agreements overwriting it (which I expect it might)


As others have said, the actual usable amount of work you could get done would be minimal, airplanes especially in Y are not the most productive environments, if I where you I wouldn't worry about it and use that time to catch up on rest so you can hit the ground in SYD running

 

[harvyk]

I should also add that I have had TA's specifically advice me (unprompted) that operating equipment can change when I've picked flights based on aircraft type.

 

[one9]

Also one9, whilst I am not a lawyer, I have worked with one in regards to automatically attaching T&C's to all sales, as I have a set of T&C's in my business which protect my rear-end from getting sued. Unless the airline has specifically guaranteed that it will be an A380 flying and specifically provided in writing that there is no possibility of a change of equipment (which no self-respecting TA would do) you may be able to make a claim stick, provided QF T&C did not prevent such agreements overwriting it (which I expect it might)

Many businesses attach terms and conditions to their sales thinking that the terms and conditions will protect them. It is not until they end up in court (or a smaller tribuanl) that the terms are tested. If a business advertises something and leaves out a major limitation in the advertisement, the business will usually have been found to have engaged in misleading advertising, regardless of whether the limitation is in the terms and conditions or not.

In most instances terms and conditions are not tested unless it is a very major limitation, or the limitation affects a lot of people.

A recent example is the TPG ads on buses offering Unlimited calls for $79? a month. 1300 numbers were excluded from the plan and this limitation was not mentioned on the ad. Of course the condition was mentioned on their website and in their terms and conditions, but the ACCC found that TPG engaged in misleading behaviour.

There are a lot more similar instances. If you were mislead and a major limitation was not made clear to you (especially for consumer type transactions and advertising) then usually a tribunal (eg. CTTT) would find in your favour as per the Trade Practices Act.

Of couse major limitation is subject to dispute.

 

[jrm27]

thanks all. that's pretty much what I figured, but at east thought I would check around here!

yep, i figured "aircraft change" would have been the correct term, but the agent I talked to specifically said "downgrade", so I wanted to try and use the correct lingo.

Oh well, them's the breaks! Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[harvyk]

A recent example is the TPG ads on buses offering Unlimited calls for $79? a month. 1300 numbers were excluded from the plan and this limitation was not mentioned on the ad. Of course the condition was mentioned on their website and in their terms and conditions, but the ACCC found that TPG engaged in misleading behaviour.

Whilst I don't disagree with what you said, the example given is a case of clear misleading advertising. If a company promises something in an advertisement (in other words written down) and they omit something major like certain phone numbers are excluded then yes that is misleading advertising. But in this case it is different, there is no advertising guaranteeing a specific aircraft type and I expect that the TA would have put in a qualifying statement, such as "an A380 is Scheduled to operate that service". The problem is even if they didn't, you still have a he said, she said scenario with QF having T&C's to hide behind.

 

[Maca44]

Even if you did not have an aircraft change and had the A380 with in-seat power, in Y you have very little room to work on a laptop and even less when the pax in front reclines which, from experience, is at least half the 14 hr flight.

 

[one9]

Whilst I don't disagree with what you said, the example given is a case of clear misleading advertising. If a company promises something in an advertisement (in other words written down) and they omit something major like certain phone numbers are excluded then yes that is misleading advertising. But in this case it is different, there is no advertising guaranteeing a specific aircraft type and I expect that the TA would have put in a qualifying statement, such as "an A380 is Scheduled to operate that service". The problem is even if they didn't, you still have a he said, she said scenario with QF having T&C's to hide behind.

Yes I see your point and agree that the TPG example is a much more clear case of misleading advertising. With the Qantas "downgrade" case I would doubt the poster would be able to show misleading advertising by a he says / she says argument. But in saying that he should examine all the information/advertising material that he used to make the decision. eg. If Qantas had an ad advertising to fly on the new A380 and the ad did not mention that there was a possibility of an aircraft change then it would likely be a case where you could expect a refund. There may be some situations where the poster could prove he was mislead into purchasing the ticket based on the operator telling him that he would be flying on an A380 but it would be difficult and would be easier if the poster had exact notes of what he was told, the dates and times and the operator name.

But in all likelihood the poster was not mislead and he can't do anything. I was just mentioning the fact that terms and conditions can usually not protect a company if a major limitation is left out of advertising.

Also all companies must give refunds/exchanges/repairs when goods:

• had a fault you did not know when you bought it
• were not the same as the seller or advertisement described
• don’t do the job you were led to believe they would
• don’t match the sample
• don’t last a reasonable amount of time, given the price you paid.

 

[JohnK]

You are paying the airline to get you from Point A to Point B.

And this is where I totally disagree. I am not only paying an airline to get me from A to B but to be on a specific type of aircraft. As the OP mentioned there are a number of carriers on this route and their choice to fly Qantas was made based on the equipment scheduled to be used.

Yes aircraft substitutions happen all the time but it does not make it OK just because it says so in the terms and conditions. I would be extremely upset, and inconvienced, if they swapped an A380 for a B767 or similar assuming that aircraft had the range.

To put it another way I guess most people here would be happy, and accept, if they booked a limousine, say BMW or Audi, for pickup to/from airport but the car that arrived was a Toyota Yaris or similar? I didn't think so....

Maybe you need to purchase an extra battery for your laptop. Note that QF12 departs LAX very late at night. Assuming your body is on USA time, you are likely to want to eat and then get some sleep before waking later in the flight to use the laptop. So for a 14 hour flight, you cannot use the laptop during ascent or decent (say 40 mins), and assuming two meal services in economy (say 1 our each) and some sleep following the late night departure (say 4 hours), you are down to about 7 hours of potential laptop use. Most modern laptops can get that operating time from two batteries if charged before boarding.

Otherwise there is not much else you can do about it.

To the OP as mentioned perhaps you can purchase an extra battery for your laptop and see if you can get one these charged in the business class cabin during the flight. I gather most seats in business class on a 747 have in seat power and people like myself would not be using that power so maybe someone can help you out to get some work done.

 

[NM]

To the OP as mentioned perhaps you can purchase an extra battery for your laptop and see if you can get one these charged in the business class cabin during the flight. I gather most seats in business class on a 747 have in seat power and people like myself would not be using that power so maybe someone can help you out to get some work done.

I am not sure how many laptop batteries can be charged stand-alone. Every laptop I have used requires the battery to be in the laptop to charge, so a 3-hour charge process would require the laptop to be taken to the charging source for 3 hours. Perhaps that would be a good time to get some sleep??

 

[mannej]

JohnK, is it not like comparing apples and oranges trying to compare airline equipment and a limousine service? Whilst they are both forms of transport, both A380 and B767's are types of planes, you would have more grounds to complain if indeed a Yaris did rock up if you had paid for a BMW or an Audi.

CX is wonderful for equipment changes, and this can be done at the gate with an hour to go before ETD

 

[JohnK]

JohnK, is it not like comparing apples and oranges trying to compare airline equipment and a limousine service? Whilst they are both forms of transport, both A380 and B767's are types of planes, you would have more grounds to complain if indeed a Yaris did rock up if you had paid for a BMW or an Audi.

But the under the same reasoning isn't a Yaris and a BMW both types of cars? And isn't the presidential suite on the 27th floor and a tiny room in the basement with just enough space for a single bed both types of hotel rooms?

I would not want to be on a 767 for an ~8 hour flight. No way. But for SYD-BNE flights I specifically seek out the 767's as I do not like the 737s. By the way it is not my fault an airline does not have enough aircraft or cabin crew and has to make late substitutions if something has gone wrong earlier in the day....

 

[NM]

JohnK, is it not like comparing apples and oranges trying to compare airline equipment and a limousine service? Whilst they are both forms of transport, both A380 and B767's are types of planes, you would have more grounds to complain if indeed a Yaris did rock up if you had paid for a BMW or an Audi.

And while a limousine company may well charge different rates for booking a Yaris vs a BMW/Audi, Qantas does not charge different rates for economy fares based on B744 vs A380. Qantas is selling transport in the economy cabin between A and B and their fare does not specify the aircraft type.

CX is wonderful for equipment changes, and this can be done at the gate with an hour to go before ETD

Or done months ahead . I have a ticket issued for F travel on CX and they changed the aircraft type to 2-class only so have been re-accommodated in J without so much as a "sorry" - just a new seat allocation. But nothing I can do as the fare rule says that if First Class is not available, book into Business Class, which is what has been done in the re-issue of the ticket.

 

[mannej]

JohnK, as NM has pointed out, you do not pay a different fair according to the aircraft type (Not that I don't agree with you about being stuck on a 767). Thats what makes your examples like apples and oranges!

As to CX, with any luck they will change it back again.

 

[docjames]

Qantas does not charge different rates for economy fares based on B744 vs A380. Qantas is selling transport in the economy cabin between A and B and their fare does not specify the aircraft type.

And thus bad luck, you get what is supplied, there is no guarantee of a certain a/c.

But nothing I can do as the fare rule says that if First Class is not available, book into Business Class, which is what has been done in the re-issue of the ticket.

Ask for refund and move travel to another carrier would be my prefered approach if unhappy with downgrade of class. F ticket should be fully refundable.

 

[NM]

Ask for refund and move travel to another carrier would be my prefered approach if unhappy with downgrade of class. F ticket should be fully refundable.

I looked at that option. The problem is that there is no F availability on any OneWorld carrier for when I want to travel. And if I cancel I have to cancel the whole trip and lose the F availability on BA for BKK-SYD. This is an AAward, so limited to award availability and have two passengers. I was going to have it all re-issued in J (U) but can't get any U availability to return to Australia from BKK.

So if I cancel now, I don't get to travel. Only option if I want to go on this trip is to accept CX business class MEL-HKG. Given they will be operating the same aircraft type I could have saved considerable time by routing BNE-HKG instead of BNE-MEL-HKG that I chose in order to travel in F. Oh well, at least we can use the MEL FLounge.