"... we'll shortly announce a major investment to improve our Frequent Flyer program"

[elanshin]

I think there's a broad assumption of the average QFF consumer being as saavy as participants on AFF with their points. I would suggest far more QFF members are cashing in their points for toasters than the sample here on AFF might.

I think the days when this is the majority is likely over. With each new participant, they join with the knowledge of "cheap flight" from tiktok and other travel vloggers.

They don't know the pains involved but aren't blindly redeeming toasters. Thats also why many forums and groups constantly get the "is this the right cost?" instead of blindly booking first.

 

[RichardMEL]

Just on this broad debate about QFFs uses and goals of "average" members - didn't QFF recently say that 76% or something of points were tedeemed for flights? Now we don't know the mux of CR vs p+p - but QFF of course is aspirational.

Same with the woolies tie in. I have a friend who is a truly infrequent flyer. Two kids, mortgage etc... she was collecting QFF via woolies and other linked things purely aspirationally. A few years back when some people were predicting QF's demise, she cashed in 200k of QFF for shopping vouchers. I think she then switched to the cashback option. No idea if she has any QFF links now. Is she "average" for a semi engaged member? I know she had an idea to save up and take her girls somewhere.

I think there are so many members with differing goals, perspectives and aspirations we simy can't "pigeon-hole " people with anything more than the most general or generalisations.

We here on AFF joke about toasters, but even if 3/4 of points are redeemed on flights, there's still billions of points redeemed on hotels, vouchers, wine and yup, toasters.

Of course with the membership of programs like woolies rewards, BP and whathaveyou, I am sure that just like majority of QFF members redeem on QF's core product of flights, majority of those program members focus on tgeir core products. Again, thise mebers will have their own priorities or goals only a smaller number(likely) will include QFF earning. Same with the hotel programs and all the rest.

 

[snabbu]

That live availability chart is very unreliable, have clicked through multiple of those on other routes only to find no reward seats. Better to cross-check with the multi city tool.

CGK is a pretty decent route for reward seats but not sure about this close to travel date.

Yes that is correct, however my question is how are we supposed to know what dates have J or better availability and explicitly exclude Y? This worked perfectly well before the "enhancements".

 

[Mr H]

Sure, but these people were never that invested in the program anyway. They were not going out of their way to earn points. They are cashing in points they earned from a flight to Europe they once took.

If the ceiling for points redemptions becomes 1c/pt, the hundreds of thousands of people chasing points — changing their shopping from Coles to Woolworths to get Qantas points, signing up for different providers to get the bonus points, etc — are all going to start shopping purely on price. The points won't factor into their decision-making anymore. That would be very bad news for Qantas.

I would give your thoughts on supermarkets more credence if I had not previously been involved in a long discussion with you where you said that people should not redeem them for points because credit card sign up bonuses gave you more points. Fundamentally, frequent flyer schemes operate on emotion - selling people dreams. If people want to get a bonus on their shopping and store it in the bank of Qantas, they will. Just like people used to pay into Christmas hamper schemes that simply stored your money and spent it for you. I am not sure you really get how these schemes work - either on a human level or on a financial level.

 

[SeatBackForward]

the hundreds of thousands of people chasing points — changing their shopping from Coles to Woolworths to get Qantas points, signing up for different providers to get the bonus points, etc — are all going to start shopping purely on price.

I would think this would be a good show of consumer force, but don't think this would happen in Australia. Firstly, consumers are mostly ambivalent, sure they'll complain, but they'll continue just going to Colesworths regardless, there isn't the compeitition to make these kinds of decisions on where to shop, each time. Or, secondly, where QFF points can be earned, their pricing is already so vastly different to other options, that anyone basing decisions on price, would already have moved onto another provider. So the QFF point collecting diehards *are* already their customers.

 

[pauly7]

I think there's a broad assumption of the average QFF consumer being as saavy as participants on AFF with their points. I would suggest far more QFF members are cashing in their points for toasters than the sample here on AFF might.

Actually noise cancelling headphones are apparently the new toaster for QFF

 

[RichardMEL]

So I see the changes in the award search function. Many people are not interested in Y awards and want to search J or better only.

disagree with this. As discussdd before, and with respect, that is the thinking of the "AFF Bubble" of those invested enough to be in the forums like this. Average Josephine may have great interest in say getting 3 seats to Gold Coast for a holiday and don't think if premium cabins.

I think we need to be aware that there are many goals of the QFF membership and not just what many on nuche forums focus on.

Btw the class availability calendar is still available via multi-city tool and selecting flexible with dates. How long for us a goid question.

 

[SeatBackForward]

Actually noise cancelling headphones are apparently the new toaster for QFF

See also "What's the best way of upgrading my economy sale seat to a business class experience using the fewest points?"

 

[levelnine]

I would give your thoughts on supermarkets more credence if I had not previously been involved in a long discussion with you where you said that people should not redeem them for points because credit card sign up bonuses gave you more points. Fundamentally, frequent flyer schemes operate on emotion - selling people dreams. If people want to get a bonus on their shopping and store it in the bank of Qantas, they will. Just like people used to pay into Christmas hamper schemes that simply stored your money and spent it for you. I am not sure you really get how these schemes work - either on a human level or on a financial level.

My comments are in perfect alignment. People should not convert WW points to Qantas points because they are buying them at the rate of 1c/pt — that's a very high rate — and you can get far more point for far cheaper with credit card bonuses. But people do convert them because there is the opportunity to redeem them for much higher than that — 2-6c/pt. If that 2-6c/pt option went away, even fewer people would opt for the WW points conversion option because it has gone from marginal value to negative value (once you take into account the loss of points/SC with Rewards+).

I do agree on the emotion point. Which is why they need to keep at least some classic rewards. It's very hard to sell people on the idea of converting WW points to Qantas at 1c/pt — convert 2,200,000 Everyday Rewards points for your dream drip to LA lol.

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2024

So the QFF point collecting diehards *are* already their customers.

To some extent, although on Facebook you read a post every day about someone wanting to collect more points and moving their shopping over to WW to do it. In any event, my points is that once you cap redemptions at 1c/pt, these diehards go away. The outsized value is gone, which is what made them into diehards in the first place.

 

[snabbu]

disagree with this. As discussdd before, and with respect, that is the thinking of the "AFF Bubble" of those invested enough to be in the forums like this. Average Josephine may have great interest in say getting 3 seats to Gold Coast for a holiday and don't think if premium cabins.

I think we need to be aware that there are many goals of the QFF membership and not just what many on nuche forums focus on.

Btw the class availability calendar is still available via multi-city tool and selecting flexible with dates. How long for us a goid question.

Yes agree 100% most people don't care, however I'm sure a lot do. I was purely highlighting an issue that I for one have used regularly for many years and now it seems to have been enhanced.

 

[RichardMEL]

Just on WWR remember it us easily possible to earn QFF points at far better rate than 1c/1pt. As an extreme example, I had a bonus offer for 1k WWR points for a single shop (no minimum) for two weeks in a row - literally this past two weeks. Ie I could have earned 2k WWR for say $2 spend which would have got 1000 QFF. Indeed I got that just buying regular stuff as I forgot all about it lol.

Now sure, those lond of bonuses are very sweet, but regular offers mean that often getting WWR points can be far cheaper than 1:1.. also see 10x on gift card offers which are pretty common.

Yep, if I accrued to the $10 off reward then sure, I could have got that too if course.

 

[RichardMEL]

Yes agree 100% most people don't care, however I'm sure a lot do. I was purely highlighting an issue that I for one have used regularly for many years and now it seems to have been enhanced.

Again, use multicity tool, select flexible with dates and the calendar view showing (alleged) cabin availability view.

Of course, customers should not have to resort to this kind of thing to see this but well.. it us what it is.

 

[Rich]

People should not convert WW points to Qantas points because they are buying them at the rate of 1c/pt

Yes,I am sitting on some WW dollars. They are really there to get across the line for PC/PCP I needed, otherwise I might just use them at WW.

Just on WWR remember it us easily possible to earn QFF points at far better rate than 1c/1pt

That is beside the point. The opportunity cost is the $10 off at WW on your next shop instead of 1000 FF points.

 

[Mr H]

Just on WWR remember it us easily possible to earn QFF points at far better rate than 1c/1pt. As an extreme example, I had a bonus offer for 1k WWR points for a single shop (no minimum) for two weeks in a row - literally this past two weeks. Ie I could have earned 2k WWR for say $2 spend which would have got 1000 QFF. Indeed I got that just buying regular stuff as I forgot all about it lol.

I think @levelnine's point (if he/she doesn't mind me paraphrasing) is that at the point of redemption you have a choice of $10 off your shopping or 1,000 FF/Velocity points - so there is a directish transaction of buying 1,000 points @ 1c/point.

 

[RichardMEL]

I think @levelnine's point (if he/she doesn't mind me paraphrasing) is that at the point of redemption you have a choice of $10 off your shopping or 1,000 FF/Velocity points - so there is a directish transaction of buying 1,000 points @ 1c/point.

Ah yes I read that as the cost to get those 2k WWR points in the first place, not the value of 1000 QFF pegged to the $10 discount value.

Fair point

 

[RealtimeY]

The question becomes: would you prefer $10 off your flight or $10 off your shopping?

You can make an emotional case either way. It's why everyday rewards has a Bank for Christmas option even though it makes no financial sense for the customer - nor do many other loyalty programs.

 

[pagingjoan]

So I see the changes in the award search function. Many people are not interested in Y awards and want to search J or better only. Even though the usual business option is selected, it seems to show all possibilities including Y fares.

Looking at SYD-CGK in J
View attachment 373059
Then click the date button brings up stacks of awards available, all in red
View attachment 373061
Some days have J and some don't - how do we know? Before when you selected Business in the first search bar you were only presented with dates that had J availability.

Am I missing something?

As I have reported earlier, this has been my experience in recent weeks, also.

 

[Gremlin]

Just on this broad debate about QFFs uses and goals of "average" members - didn't QFF recently say that 76% or something of points were tedeemed for flights? Now we don't know the mux of CR vs p+p - but QFF of course is aspirational.

Same with the woolies tie in. I have a friend who is a truly infrequent flyer. Two kids, mortgage etc... she was collecting QFF via woolies and other linked things purely aspirationally. A few years back when some people were predicting QF's demise, she cashed in 200k of QFF for shopping vouchers. I think she then switched to the cashback option. No idea if she has any QFF links now. Is she "average" for a semi engaged member? I know she had an idea to save up and take her girls somewhere.

I think there are so many members with differing goals, perspectives and aspirations we simy can't "pigeon-hole " people with anything more than the most general or generalisations.

We here on AFF joke about toasters, but even if 3/4 of points are redeemed on flights, there's still billions of points redeemed on hotels, vouchers, wine and yup, toasters.

Of course with the membership of programs like woolies rewards, BP and whathaveyou, I am sure that just like majority of QFF members redeem on QF's core product of flights, majority of those program members focus on tgeir core products. Again, thise mebers will have their own priorities or goals only a smaller number(likely) will include QFF earning. Same with the hotel programs and all the rest.

Around 76% now. Pretty much every investor presentation in the past few years has that dropping to low 50s over the next five years.

Growth in redemptions, which let’s face it, are pretty much at the discretion of Qantas, are coming from many, many sources. But not redeemed flights.

 

[clifford]

The question becomes: would you prefer $10 off your flight or $10 off your shopping?

Well, if that was the question (which I don't think it is), I'd go for $10 of my groceries any day. For reasons obvious to most.

 

[Gremlin]

You seem to misunderstand me.

If your only options are to get $10 off your shop at Woolworths or $10 off your next Qantas flight (ie 0.1c/pt redemptions), why would you go to the effort of converting to Qantas points? Especially when that Qantas flight earns you less points and SCs than a flight you bought with cash. Qantas has just lost a whole bunch of customers because they aren't offering them anything more than Woolworths. Indeed, they're offering them something less because these points flights are inferior to cash flights.

I don’t misunderstand you at all. QFF loses money off people like you (and me) who analyse the cost per point redemption value and maximise redemption value whilst minimising costs. They make money off customers who blindly transact and don’t think about the optimal use of points.

Despite consistently downgrading the value of the program every couple of years, QFF continue to see above system growth year on year. Every year we see prediction after prediction about how the latest change will be the death of QFF. Yours is just the latest.

It may genuinely change behaviours of the optimisers and gamers, but those extracting most value for least cost are, by definition the least profitable members. Loyalty programs are fundamentally about changing customer behaviours to improve profitability. If this change drives out unprofitable members then isn’t that going to help hit that $1b QFF profit target?

Super active in the program doesn’t always translate to super profitable for the program.