Views on Cabotage

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dfcatch

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So..... Interested in people's views on easing cabotage restrictions.

I'm not asking for bets on the chances of it happening.... I'm asking "if" it were on the cards to possibly happen:

1/ What would be the priorities?
2/ The implications?
3/ The arguments for and against?
 
Cabotage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmmm... interesting one. I would think it would severely impact on domestic carriers for sure, as domestic airlines just could not compete with foreign airline wages, for one, assuming that the government allowed the foreign workers on foreign airlines operating domestic routes to be paid foreign wages (which, when you think of it, is what happens when foreign airlines fly in/out internationally... this is just broadening the scope to allow them to fly on domestic routes as a domestic carrier).

I'm sure any foreign company would love to get a slice of the action in the growing Australian Domestic airline market where/if it was profitable for them. Of course, their priorities would probably be the Golden Triangle, Trans-con and (other) Capital city markets, and regional and rural areas would continue to be neglected and may even suffer further as Domestic carriers attempt to stave off the new competition.
 
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Cabotage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmmm... interesting one. I would think it would severely impact on domestic carriers for sure, as domestic airlines just could not compete with foreign airline wages, for one, assuming that the government allowed the foreign workers on foreign airlines operating domestic routes to be paid foreign wages (which, when you think of it, is what happens when foreign airlines fly in/out internationally... this is just broadening the scope to allow them to fly on domestic routes as a domestic carrier).

I'm sure any foreign company would love to get a slice of the action in the growing Australian Domestic airline market. Of course, their priorities would probably be the Golden Triangle, Trans-con and (other) Capital city markets, and regional and rural areas would continue to be neglected and may even suffer further as Domestic carriers attempt to stave off the new competition.

But what if transcon and golden triangle routes were not permitted?

Ie. if the relaxation on restrictions only applied to regional/tourism markets?

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this ;)
 
You want an Emirates A380 service from CNS to SYD and MEL, don't you? :p

Well... Now that you mention it ;)

(Actually I have no desire to ever fly on a sandbox airline).

But keep the great ideas coming :)
 
For a start, it would be nice to be able to do a connecting star alliance redemption within Australia .... eg xx_-SYD-MEL.
 
So..... Interested in people's views on easing cabotage restrictions.

One could argue that in a completely free market economy that promotes capitalism and competition, it would be irresponsible not to lift cabotage restrictions.

If the government lifted cabotage to encourage particular markets then that may work. For example:
  • Regional markets - tough ask here, as many airlines fly into this country with aircraft far too large for many regional destinations. Then, you actually have to think whether it is suitable even from the get-go.
  • Much more point-to-point, especially from non-major hubs, e.g. BNE, OOL, CBR, HBA. Possibly to connect to major hubs or from major hubs, regional markets and Trans-Tasman point-to-point. For example, finally get something like CBR/WLG or CBR/AKL happening, or EK operating something like HBA/MEL/DXB, or CHC/HBA/PER/DXB, with carriage possible between all points.

I don't see regional markets benefitting highly from lifting cabotage restrictions unless such markets are improved to cater as such. Let's not forget that many regional destinations are somewhat protected by government tenders on who can operate such routes, and there are also subsidies.

Charter and small regional airlines may complain that the liberalisation of cabotage may have implications for them, especially since they are highly economically sensitive.

The golden triangle - how many more flights can you stuff into that? SYD is a basket case for traffic without even thinking about adding more traffic on SYD/MEL or SYD/BNE.


Overall, are cabotage restrictions really impeding any international airline from putting in a case to operate domestic or Trans-Tasman routes right now? Or they (the international airlines) just don't want to do it?
 
One could argue that in a completely free market economy that promotes capitalism and competition, it would be irresponsible not to lift cabotage restrictions.
Level playing fields are great if only they are that... level. And when comparing international economics, they're not. Just ask the Japanese rice farmers who protested the import of foreign rice into their country a couple of years ago.

If the government lifted cabotage to encourage particular markets then that may work. For example:
  • Regional markets - tough ask here, as many airlines fly into this country with aircraft far too large for many regional destinations. Then, you actually have to think whether it is suitable even from the get-go.
Just because they fly large aircraft on International routes doesn't mean they would use these same aircraft on domestic routes if they specifically set themselves up as a domestic carrier. Of course I'm sure they would use aircraft more suitable to the appropriate market. For example, VA doesn't (or rarely does) use 777s on domestic routes.

  • Much more point-to-point, especially from non-major hubs, e.g. BNE, OOL, CBR, HBA. Possibly to connect to major hubs or from major hubs, regional markets and Trans-Tasman point-to-point. For example, finally get something like CBR/WLG or CBR/AKL happening, or EK operating something like HBA/MEL/DXB, or CHC/HBA/PER/DXB, with carriage possible between all points.
Cabotage (ninth-freedom right) doesn't govern these movements specifically: it's Eighth-freedom rights which provide the ability for carriers to fly domestically within a country, but only if they are continuing on to a foreign country. CX does this with CX102/103 as a triangulation between HKG-CNS-BNE-HKG and vice versa. However, they can only carrier international pax on the CNS-BNE segment, not domestic pax, as JQ and QF are allowed (e.g. JQ35).

Fifth freedom covers the routes EK does on the Trans-tasman and then onto DXB etc. So there are already provisions for these. If EK wanted to operate on Trans-tasman flights in its own right, and not as part of an international connection, they would need seventh-freedom rights.

In the last half-decade, the government specifically offered to foreign carriers to take up their eight-freedom rights by offering better access into first-tier international Airports (BNE/MEL/SYD) if they connected through second-tier airports (such as CNS). Not much happened, although CZ is soon to start up a route to CNS which will be similar to CX's triangulation, CAN-BNE-CNS-CAN. Of course, under eighth-freedom rights, they can't carry domestic pax on the BNE-CNS leg.

Freedoms of the air - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cabotage (ninth-freedom) is specifically allowing a foreign airline to act in a country as a foreign-owned and operated company as a domestic carrier, completely separate from any international operations it may or may not undertake. It's a whole different ball-game.

Of course, if I was a foreign airline and allowed to operate domestically within another country in my own right, I'd do everything I could to make sure I'm connecting domestic pax to my international services too! So of course many of their domestic services would align with their international services, just as QF and VA do already.

I don't see regional markets benefitting highly from lifting cabotage restrictions unless such markets are improved to cater as such. Let's not forget that many regional destinations are somewhat protected by government tenders on who can operate such routes, and there are also subsidies.
There's a reason they are protected and subsidised, and that is mainly as the cost of providing the service is potentially far greater than the value the market is willing to pay for that service, or would otherwise incur a social disadvantage to the communities requiring those services. E.g. I can get from CNS to ABM (Bamaga) on Skytrans for $189 one-way, but that's probably only because it's subsidised by the government.

Perhaps rather a foreign airline could see an opportunity and improve services on regional and rural markets.. you know, the "build it and they will come" approach. ;)

The golden triangle - how many more flights can you stuff into that? SYD is a basket case for traffic without even thinking about adding more traffic on SYD/MEL or SYD/BNE.
However, picking up your original comment about free market, I guess a free market would not restrict the market size and would allow the market to determine the number of services required. If that means EK or SQ running more 737s between SYD/MEL for $20 a seat or $120 in business because it fits their economics, then so be it...?

Overall, are cabotage restrictions really impeding any international airline from putting in a case to operate domestic or Trans-Tasman routes right now? Or they (the international airlines) just don't want to do it?
Yes cabotage does restrict international airlines operating domestically. Let's not confuse cabotage with other freedom rights. ;)
 
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I would be fine with foreign airlines being allowed to set up a fully domestic operation as long as all staff involved were employed under Australian industrial relations law. As for domestic legs that connect to international flights, I think they should be limited to prevent unfair competition and approved on a case by case basis, depending on the wage differential between the operating airline and Australia and how much benefit would flow to people from another service.

Cabotage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmmm... interesting one. I would think it would severely impact on domestic carriers for sure, as domestic airlines just could not compete with foreign airline wages, for one, assuming that the government allowed the foreign workers on foreign airlines operating domestic routes to be paid foreign wages (which, when you think of it, is what happens when foreign airlines fly in/out internationally... this is just broadening the scope to allow them to fly on domestic routes as a domestic carrier).

True, but since foreign airlines can't sell tickets for the domestic legs only, the current situation doesn't directly affect local airlines' domestic operations. Same with QF107/8 from LAX to JFK which is only allowed to take passengers who flew from overseas/are connecting to an international flight.

Interestingly, given the fears of foreign airlines undercutting Australian wages and conditions, wasn't it JQ that got caught using Thai flight attendants on Australian domestic flights, paying them under Thai conditions?
 
Don't really like the idea. Opening up competition doesn't always help improve things.
 
Don't really like the idea. Opening up competition doesn't always help improve things.

Mal,

What about on routes like CNS-SYD for example where QF doesn't care for it (and potentially other routes from CNS and similar ports).

Ie. not introducing unnecessary competition on the golden triangle - but allowing other carriers to take domestic pax on routes that are under-serviced by QF/VA.

It might make QF think twice before withdrawing from routes if it allows other carriers to gain a domestic connection foothold.

A port like CNS can take a 747 (not that I'm proposing that), but a 777 is not an "out-there" proposition. And there's no reason not to allow say NZ to fly AKL-SYD-CNS for example, or the existing CX HKG-BNE-CNS is a good example.

What about SQ flying SIN-CNS-SYD??

My view is that if QF is uninterested in ports like CNS - then open it up to the market to some degree. The potential economic benefits of more tourist bums on seats is obvious. Allowing other carriers to fill the seats on tag flights makes it more viable as an option for them....??..??


If QF objects - they can choose to service the port adequately to stave off the competition....
 
I would be fine with foreign airlines being allowed to set up a fully domestic operation as long as all staff involved were employed under Australian industrial relations law.

This is actually already permitted. See: Tiger.
 
If QF objects - they can choose to service the port adequately to stave off the competition....

What about the international ports QF serve I.e places like PER and ADL, airlines like EK and SQ are going up to 4 x daily, yet QF will only have a max of 3 flights a day a few times a week...

Nice in theory but doesn't always work like that in practise!
 
Cabotage (ninth-freedom right) doesn't govern these movements specifically: it's Eighth-freedom rights which provide the ability for carriers to fly domestically within a country, but only if they are continuing on to a foreign country. CX does this with CX102/103 as a triangulation between HKG-CNS-BNE-HKG and vice versa. However, they can only carrier international pax on the CNS-BNE segment, not domestic pax, as JQ and QF are allowed (e.g. JQ35).

Fifth freedom covers the routes EK does on the Trans-tasman and then onto DXB etc. So there are already provisions for these. If EK wanted to operate on Trans-tasman flights in its own right, and not as part of an international connection, they would need seventh-freedom rights.

In the last half-decade, the government specifically offered to foreign carriers to take up their eight-freedom rights by offering better access into first-tier international Airports (BNE/MEL/SYD) if they connected through second-tier airports (such as CNS). Not much happened, although CZ is soon to start up a route to CNS which will be similar to CX's triangulation, CAN-BNE-CNS-CAN. Of course, under eighth-freedom rights, they can't carry domestic pax on the BNE-CNS leg.

Freedoms of the air - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AFAIK CX pax would be able to travel CNS/BNE or vv only if it was in connection with other CX travel into/out of Australia ie own stopover traffic eg HKG/CNS/BNE or BNE/CNS/HKG. Same as when QF3 flew SYD/HNL/SFO & pax could only travel HNL/SFO if they had flown into HNL on QF.

I would be fine with foreign airlines being allowed to set up a fully domestic operation as long as all staff involved were employed under Australian industrial relations law. As for domestic legs that connect to international flights, I think they should be limited to prevent unfair competition and approved on a case by case basis, depending on the wage differential between the operating airline and Australia and how much benefit would flow to people from another service.

True, but since foreign airlines can't sell tickets for the domestic legs only, the current situation doesn't directly affect local airlines' domestic operations. Same with QF107/8 from LAX to JFK which is only allowed to take passengers who flew from overseas/are connecting to an international flight.

Interestingly, given the fears of foreign airlines undercutting Australian wages and conditions, wasn't it JQ that got caught using Thai flight attendants on Australian domestic flights, paying them under Thai conditions?

If foreign flight attendants (Thai, Singaporean or whomever) are working as flight attendants on Australian VH registered aircraft, unless they have Australian residency or the right to work in Australia then then are working illegally. They could only operate within Australia eg JQ57 CNS/DRW if it the aircraft was not registered in Australia eg a 9V registered aircraft is fine.

What about on routes like CNS-SYD for example where QF doesn't care for it (and potentially other routes from CNS and similar ports).

Ie. not introducing unnecessary competition on the golden triangle - but allowing other carriers to take domestic pax on routes that are under-serviced by QF/VA.

If QF objects - they can choose to service the port adequately to stave off the competition....

Isn't that a bit like 'I don't want it but you can't have it'?

What about SQ flying SIN-CNS-SYD??

SIN/CNS/SYD AFAIK is possible now how that would mean SQ are essentially offering a SIN/SYD flight with one stop & they really seem to be about offerent non-stop flights ex Aust to SIN to offer 1 stop flights to Europe. It would probably be as popular as taking QF81/QF82 (via ADL) if you were flying SYD/SIN/SYD with the exception of some AFFers doing Flounge runs.

This is actually already permitted. See: Tiger.

The aircraft that Tiger Airways (TT) fly in Australia are all Australian "VH" registered aircraft with Australian crews whereas Tiger Airways (TR) that flew SIN/DRW, SIN/PER etc used overseas crews on Singapore "9V" registered aircraft.
 
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What about the international ports QF serve I.e places like PER and ADL, airlines like EK and SQ are going up to 4 x daily, yet QF will only have a max of 3 flights a day a few times a week...

Nice in theory but doesn't always work like that in practise!

Maybe I've misunderstood your point.... But not sure where this is a problem??

There is clearly enough demand for the other carriers to operate these services.
 
Mal,

What about on routes like CNS-SYD for example where QF doesn't care for it (and potentially other routes from CNS and similar ports).

Ie. not introducing unnecessary competition on the golden triangle - but allowing other carriers to take domestic pax on routes that are under-serviced by QF/VA.

Who decides, and how is it decided which routes are fair game, and which aren't?

Like everything else that has been opened up to competition, competitors will not want the routes that will benefit the most. How much competition does Australia Post have delivering to Doomadgee as an example?

The legacy companies that are already serving the good routes lose money on the route as they can't compete with cheap foreign wages (of course JQ can ... !). Net result is a degradation of service on other routes and/or increases in fares on other routes.
 
Maybe I've misunderstood your point.... But not sure where this is a problem??

There is clearly enough demand for the other carriers to operate these services.

You make a point by opening up routes it'll force QF to react - nice in theory, but as the PER example for one, it doesn't always work in practise hey. Has QF reacted here? Ill let you answer that
 
The aircraft that Tiger Airways (TT) fly in Australia are all Australian "VH" registered aircraft with Australian crews whereas Tiger Airways (TR) that flew SIN/DRW, SIN/PER etc used overseas crews on Singapore "9V" registered aircraft.

Yes, which means that TT is a "Fully domestic operation" set up by a "foreign airline" as per the post i was responding to.
 
You make a point by opening up routes it'll force QF to react - nice in theory, but as the PER example for one, it doesn't always work in practise hey. Has QF reacted here? Ill let you answer that

Ahh yes - I understand your point now.

Perhaps QF is happy enough (not concerned) with its current share of capacity ;)
 
I would not have an issue with an airline flying SIN-CNS-SYD as long as all it did in CNS was drop-off passengers. But even if it did pick up passengers in CNS I do not think that would be a big deal.

But if say the question was something like "Can Singapore Airlines fly CNS-SYD-ADL or any other route that is not part of an international itinerary?" then my answer would be no.

Sure Qantas may have neglected some routes but the answer is not to allow overseas carriers to setup domestic services.
 
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