VA Cancellations, Delays growing?

[MEL_Traveller]

55 is the maximum rate per hour, not the average rate.

I'm not sure what apples & oranges metrics you are using, but if you take MEL's monthly rate for September (19906), that's 27.6 moves per hour spread over 24 hours. Of course we know that traffic is minimal between 2200-0600, and will surge in peak periods, so there's not a constant flow of traffic throughout the day. During peak periods it is likely to get closer to 60 than to 30 per hour.

I can't find 2023 stats for Gatwick, but the 2022 total was 213034, making that 17752 per month, and 24.6 per hour.

I'd also like to note that although MEL has two runways, they are crossing. Crossing runways aren't twice as efficient as a single runway (like parallel runways are, ie SYD/BNE). Better than one, but not as good as two parallels.

There's also a huge assumption that MEL is the limitation here, which seems like a flawed assumption considering neither MEL or LGW have exceeded their pre-covid passenger records.



Don't blame the operational staff, they follow the standards in MATS (Manual of Air Traffic Services). Some of the standards in this document are over conservative, but that's imposed by management and the regulators, the latter of which are in the business of preventing accidents, and are less concerned with efficiency.

2022 not sure how many flights or movements were still restricted by covid? And is that a true reflection of late 2023?

The figures for MEL I got from 2019, it’s a PDF and the link seems broken if I got to it from cache, but the figures were 221, 000 yearly movements between 6am and 11pm. My maths - which isn’t great! - works that to 33 movements per hour? In peak times. Total including off peak was 240,000

At gatwick the 2019 figure was 280,700, although they didn’t break that down to peak day vs overnight. departures between 11pm and 6am appear to be restricted by quota to ~14000 per year.

Like for like, taking out 11pm-6am, gathwick in 2019 handled ~266,000, MEL ~221,000. And Melbourne has at least one more runway.

So it might come down to just a two or three extra takeoffs and landings per hour, but multiply that by a year and tightening up the margins could have a significant impact.

 

[justinbrett]

2022 not sure how many flights or movements were still restricted by covid? And is that a true reflection of late 2023?

The figures for MEL I got from 2019, it’s a PDF and the link seems broken if I got to it from cache, but the figures were 221, 000 yearly movements between 6am and 11pm. My maths - which isn’t great! - works that to 33 movements per hour? In peak times. Total including off peak was 240,000

At gatwick the 2019 figure was 280,700, although they didn’t break that down to peak day vs overnight. departures between 11pm and 6am appear to be restricted by quota to ~14000 per year.

Like for like, taking out 11pm-6am, gathwick in 2019 handled ~266,000, MEL ~221,000. And Melbourne has at least one more runway.

So it might come down to just a two or three extra takeoffs and landings per hour, but multiply that by a year and tightening up the margins could have a significant impact.

So you were saying LGW were doing 55/hour, now you're saying it's doing 38/hour - which is far below the max rate for a single runway.

It seems you've just argued that LGW is slightly busier than MEL, but not that MEL is constrained.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So you were saying LGW were doing 55/hour, now you're saying it's doing 38/hour - which is far below the max rate for a single runway.

It seems you've just argued that LGW is slightly busier than MEL, but not that MEL is constrained.

I guess that’s the difference, as you pointed out, between the max capacity and what they actually operate.

LGW was still higher pre covid with one less runway. And LGW could well be hitting max capacity and movements at peak hour. In MEL at 7pm we were running at about 30, watching FR in real time.

Will be interesting to see the figures for 2023 when they are available.

 

[justinbrett]

I guess that’s the difference, as you pointed out, between the max capacity and what they actually operate.

LGW was still higher pre covid with one less runway. And LGW could well be hitting max capacity and movements at peak hour. In MEL at 7pm we were running at about 30, watching FR in real time.

Will be interesting to see the figures for 2023 when they are available.

But again a crossing runway doesn't double your capacity, so it's somewhat irrelevant.

I don't see the evidence that MEL is constrained at 30 moves per hour. It is indeed designed to have up to 65 moves per hour (maximum 40 arrivals).

Also keep in mind FR is generally just RPT, there's other aircraft using the airfield.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But again a crossing runway doesn't double your capacity, so it's somewhat irrelevant.

I don't see the evidence that MEL is constrained at 30 moves per hour. It is indeed designed to have up to 65 moves per hour (maximum 40 arrivals).

Also keep in mind FR is generally just RPT, there's other aircraft using the airfield.

That’s the whole point. It’s not constrained to 30 movements an hour… or at least in theory shouldn’t be.

ATC seems slow compared to USA and Europe. Instead of waiting three minutes for an inbound, get two planes away.

 

[justinbrett]

That’s the whole point. It’s not constrained to 30 movements an hour… or at least in theory shouldn’t be.

ATC seems slow compared to USA and Europe. Instead of waiting three minutes for an inbound, get two planes away.

You've already asked these questions and we had a whole thread answering them. Is Aussie ATC too slow?

Stop trying to do ATC from the pax seat using flight radar. I can't begin to point out what's wrong with that.

 

[Sleepy Sloth]

Just to add to the initial topic, yesterday was a nightmare trying to simply get back to the Gold Coast from Sydney with Virgin. Flight booked a few months ago, 1.20pm departure. Checked in too early at 10.40am due to hotel check-out. Once at the gate, the departure time had changed to 1.30pm. The plane arrived, the ground crew were at the desk, passengers disembarked, and then they made the announcement that the flight was cancelled. No reason was given and we were told to go to the Virgin service desk.

The line to the desk was ridiculous and never moved forward. 20 minutes later I got an email from Virgin saying my flight was cancelled and they had booked me on another one, now departing at 5.20pm. UGH. The email said my bags (which had obviously been checked in hours ago) would be transferred to the new flight, but then I heard some people saying the bags were going around on one of the carousels. I asked the nearest desk (flight to Launceston) and the nice employee confirmed that yes, the bags would be on carousel 3 and we would then need to re-check them in for the new flight. There was no announcement about anything.

So I did that. It took over an hour for the bags to appear as an earlier cancelled Virgin Sydney to Adelaide flight's bags were going around first. (I only knew that because I asked a baggage handler who was removing the cancelled Adelaide bags from the carousel to make room for the cancelled Gold Coast bags. There was a large pile of Adelaide bags beside the carousel, as yet unclaimed. Maybe because the passengers assumed their bags had been transferred to the new flight.)

In the meantime, I had to reschedule my cat's return home from the cattery where he had been while I was in Sydney. He had been due to come home at 6pm but now it would need to be pushed back to 7.30pm.

I checked-in again. Went through security again. Then sat and waited before going to the gate. The board said 5.20pm to the Gold Coast. At 4.30pm, the ground crew arrived (as well as 3 police officers and 2 security guards. I don't know why). At 5.15pm, the announcement came that this flight was cancelled due to there being no flight crew.

They apologised, and especially to those whose earlier flights had already been cancelled (yeah, thanks), and then said there were no other flights that night and an "ad hoc" flight would be "attempted" for 7am the following day that would "try to" accommodate all displaced passengers. WTF!? They also said they could offer a letter to give to hotels that "might" be willing to accept it, and that they would "consider compensation for a reasonable amount". A young passenger nearby was crying on the phone to her mum. Another passenger said this had happened to him before and the airport hotels usually were full and you were expected to find a hostel. He had made the mistake of staying in a hotel of his choice and it was apparently too expensive (last minute booking in Sydney CBD) so there was only very minimal compensation from Virgin ($100 plus $30 for one meal).

No way was I doing that, and then having to come back at 5am the next morning for a flight that may or may not actually depart. I then received the email saying my flight had been cancelled and I did not accept the new flight. There were no other options given so I cancelled. I then booked the only remaining flight from Sydney to the Gold Coast that night. Qantas departing at 7.20pm. While I was booking online, an "error" occurred and I had to start again. That error was the price increasing from $195 to $279. Ugh. I booked it and got one of the last 4 remaining seats (29F).

Again I went and collected my bags from carousel 3. This time, they came out immediately. I then had to go from terminal 2 to terminal 3, check-in AGAIN and go through security again. I then waited in the gate, having to again reschedule my cat to now be dropped back to me the following day. Thankfully this flight boarded right on time and I was able to get home, at

What. A. Nightmare.

 

[Saab34]

At this rate, they will likely hold the record for the lowest OTP and highest cancellation rate, since recording started.

Bring on consumer protections.

I have paused all VA spending going forward and have moved to ZL and JQ. They can’t even hold the place together over the past few weeks, just imagine when staff start striking in the very near future. It comes across to me, that the place has band aids all over it just waiting for the IPO, only issue for them, is they are starting to fall off.

 

[MarkD]

So another cancelled flight for wednesday. “ we have rebooked your business seat into economy, too bad so sad, we will refund tge difference”. cough they will. Still waiting for refund of fare difference j to y from september ( and sc)
I understand that cough happens and they have to change some things but when they just treat you with contempt and expect you to suck it up and eat a big one thats the thing that is annoying. I stood firm this tine and told them ive paid J and I will be flying J. They found me two seats and hour later. Ive been so loyal to them but im just about done. I need to know my flight will arrive within a reasonable time of that advertised and in the class i paid for. Bring on a qf status match and id be up for that now.
The otger side of course is the SC earn, when they cancel and throw you on whatever flight they want you invariably get your J seat pushed back to Y down near the coughhouse and they only pay Y SC. Then if any fare difference they will refund at the lowest fare on the day they changed ( usually a full flight and the Y fare is more expensive than the J fare I booked ). They are a bunch of clowns

 

[RooFlyer]

Welcome to AFF @Sleepy Sloth . Sounds a very ordinary experience.

 

[MooTime]

So another cancelled flight for wednesday. “ we have rebooked your business seat into economy, too bad so sad, we will refund tge difference”. cough they will. Still waiting for refund of fare difference j to y from september ( and sc)
I understand that cough happens and they have to change some things but when they just treat you with contempt and expect you to suck it up and eat a big one thats the thing that is annoying. I stood firm this tine and told them ive paid J and I will be flying J. They found me two seats and hour later. Ive been so loyal to them but im just about done. I need to know my flight will arrive within a reasonable time of that advertised and in the class i paid for. Bring on a qf status match and id be up for that now.
The otger side of course is the SC earn, when they cancel and throw you on whatever flight they want you invariably get your J seat pushed back to Y down near the coughhouse and they only pay Y SC. Then if any fare difference they will refund at the lowest fare on the day they changed ( usually a full flight and the Y fare is more expensive than the J fare I booked ). They are a bunch of clowns

Yes QF will treat you better, just 500 pages of ordinary service here on AFF.
Good luck with that.

 

[Sleepy Sloth]

Yep! While I was waiting around, I looked at the various Virgin flights that had been cancelled that day, and it seemed to be almost every second flight to the Gold Coast, and several flights to Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne, including ones at 6am, 8am, midday, 1pm, 4pm and 5pm.

This morning's 7am replacement flight did end up departing, but the regular scheduled flight at 8.20am was cancelled. HMMM.

 

[MarkD]

Yes QF will treat you better, just 500 pages of ordinary service here on AFF.
Good luck with that.

Yeah maybe. But it cant be worse. For BNE-SYD I will likely just swap it all to rex anyway next year. I know my walking wont affect them and they wont miss me, but at least i should get where i need to go on time. The unfortunate thing is I am not yet a leisure traveller when my care factor would not be an issue, sadly if i book something I need to be there roughly that time. Things happen and there are delays and cancellations, but this is a whole new level

Post automatically merged: Nov 19, 2023

Yep! While I was waiting around, I looked at the various Virgin flights that had been cancelled that day, and it seemed to be almost every second flight to the Gold Coast, and several flights to Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne, including ones at 6am, 8am, midday, 1pm, 4pm and 5pm.

This morning's 7am replacement flight did end up departing, but the regular scheduled flight at 8.20am was cancelled. HMMM.

I dont know facts but my assumption is that they are just shifting pax around to have full flights during current crewing issues. And obviously to boost the bottom line

 

[Sleepy Sloth]

Yep, agreed. I'm just appalled that they cancelled my original flight AND then also cancelled the replacement one they put me on! Surely the replacement one was full enough!?

 

[RooFlyer]

Yep, agreed. I'm just appalled that they cancelled my original flight AND then also cancelled the replacement one they put me on! Surely the replacement one was full enough!?

You would think so, and given they are then on the hook for some accommodation etc, you'd have to think that the plane was genuinely u/s or no crew available.

 

[Saab34]

You can chase some of the aircraft on FR24, VH-VUH which was lined up to operate that 1.20pm OOL, didn’t move until the next morning.

 

[TheInsider]

. He had made the mistake of staying in a hotel of his choice and it was apparently too expensive (last minute booking in Sydney CBD) so there was only very minimal compensation from Virgin ($100 plus $30 for one meal).

8. Claims for reasonable costs​

Guest Compensation Policy - customer service | Virgin Australia

You may be entitled to the assistance set out in this policy where you have a confirmed and/or ticketed reservation on a Virgin Australia flight and we need to make a change to your reservation before or on your day of travel.

www.virginaustralia.com

The types of costs you may be entitled to claim in the event of a disruption to your booking are outlined in this section 8. You may also be entitled to reimbursement of additional costs if we have not complied with the Consumer Guarantees under the Australian Consumer Law. Please see our Consumer Guarantees page for more information.

If Virgin Australia delays or cancels your flight due to factors within its control and as a result you are delayed overnight while you wait for your new Virgin Australia service, you may submit a claim for the following costs:

• The reasonable cost of hotel accommodation (if you are not at your home port and if we do not organise accommodation for you) up to $200 per room per night;
• The reasonable cost of airport transfers (for example, taxi, Uber, train, ferry or bus);
• Reasonable meal costs (up to $30 per night per person if you are not at your home port); and
• Cost incurred for reasonable personal items (if you are not at your home port).

In addition, if you are delayed for 2 hours or more at the airport, we will provide reasonable meal costs for the duration of your delay at the airport (if we do not provide you with meal/refreshment vouchers).

Virgin Australia considers the following matters to be within its control:

• Crew shortages;
• Unscheduled aircraft maintenance or other engineering issues;
• Malfunction of Virgin Australia IT infrastructure (other than malicious attacks);
• An aircraft has been overbooked;
• You are denied boarding (either voluntarily or involuntarily) for reasons other than your conduct on your day of travel;
• You miss your connecting Virgin Australia flight because we delayed or cancelled a flight for one of the above reasons; or
• We decide to stop operating services on a specific route for commercial reasons.

 

[PERLHR]

On a day of flight cancellation what hotel would be offering a room for 200 dollars? Very few if any I suspect ...

 

[elanshin]

Time to roll the dice, taking last VA898 Syd > Mel for the day for tomorrow. I see that it has departed only once or twice in the last fortnight on time.

Still $120 cheaper than QF

 

[Bagpuss]

It comes across to me, that the place has band aids all over it just waiting for the IPO, only issue for them, is they are starting to fall off.

Yeah, the operations team sit there stressed trying to work out aircraft movements and crew allocations and a manger stands up and screams "cancel everything, we have to disrupt passengers, tarnish our brand and pay out accommodation costs cause the IPO the AFF Forum members keep making out will happen tomorrow and it will need to be a success!"

Manager sits down and scratches his head and then thinks ... Wow I been screaming about that IPO for almost a year