The demise of Qantas international flights

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Was interesting to read the moans over on the good old BA forum about how BA was losing share of its Middle East business thanks to competing with the EK/QF A380 onslaught!

Ba has lost middle east market - FlyerTalk Forums

Something I had not given much thought about and probably another irritating splinter in BAs eye!
 
While I agree CX would be a great partner for QF,
and as has been made public, QF had discussions with CX, SQ and MH, before the arrangement with EK...

The issue is QF brings CX so little given CX already flies to the key Australian ports, and with much better frequencies than QF.
CX already flies triple daily into SYD, versus QF single daily
Double daily into MEL, versus QF single daily
Double 4/week into BNE, versus QF single daily
Daily into ADL, versus QF nil
1.5x daily into PER, versus QF nil
3/week into CNS, versus QF nil
as well as daily to AKL.
Then CX TAs can just add any QF/VA domestic flights they want and voila.
 
There might also be problems with the ACCC in a CX/QF tie up since the only competition on HKG routes it the 1 VS SYD service.
 
Also for most of Asia (apart from China), transiting HKG, is a bit like transiting LHR (albeit with a much better airport),
in that you are overflying to come back to destination.

SQ, MH (or dare I say even GA) would be better partners for Asia.
 
Also for most of Asia (apart from China), transiting HKG, is a bit like transiting LHR (albeit with a much better airport),
in that you are overflying to come back to destination.

But not too different to transiting SYD to get to most of Asia (other than Japan) ex-MEL/ADL or most of Asia (ex BNE) where you basically head in the wrong direction for an hour or so before starting to head once more in the right direction.
 
To take your comment off track for a moment, I think that this outlines why Qantas will leave oneworld within the next few years.

As an alliance, I reckon that it is becoming increasingly inconvenient for Qantas to have some of its major competitors leverage business from QF's own customer database, via oneworld.

This is an overstatement. Since day 1 of QF's participating in oneworld, QF has not stopped to be the partner who plays outside the alliance. Alitalia, Air France, SAS to name a few of QF's encounters outside the alliance. If QF is happy to share its customer database with those other alliance members, what is the problem of QF share them with oneworld members? And, why should QF have access to BA, CX, MH's customer database without contribution to others? Alliance requires multi-trusts among members. It is riciporical in terms of share customers. That is what alliance for.

Sure, at the moment, it gets some revenue from oneworld airline competitors having to buy points and status credits from QFF for customers they poach, but over the next few years I imagine that Qantas management will want more of the pie from its "own customers" that it "shares" with other carriers. That probably equates to a future with strategic revenue sharing partnerships only. (So, CX, MH, BA, QR... likely need to be sidelined with a "direct sweep" style approach from QFF, by it exiting oneworld.)

Alliance is not only about earn, burn and turn (here the turn refers to members show up in the lounge). The most important aspects about alliance, is to create a virtual airline that covers most of the more desired geography areas which could not be done previously due to regulatory hurdle. This virtual airline does not need to own the aircraft or run its own business, but require the members buy into the promotional activities around the globe and provide standandrised service. Strategic revenue sharing partnership could not replace alliance. You have to realise flying public is a limited source for airlines. Although there are new people flying daily, overall, the size of the pool is not unlimited. A great point of alliance is that the bigger alliance is, the more potential customers are. A strategic revenue sharing partnership will not enlarge customer base, rather it would require airlines like Qantas to give up existing rights. Qantas, will undoubtly loosing customers to Emirates. Once the strategic relationship end, either EK wants to pull a plug or QF is tired, or it has grown too big that regulatory wants it to end, or any other unexpected circumstances kicked in, QF will loose out since QF could not serve all the routes it previously served through EK. Passengers who find Emirates provide their needs will abandon QF.

Here we are also talking about two types of customers. One is FIT, those travel for leisure or family reasons. Business people travel on non-contracted fares as well. Another is contracted flyers, those who hold contracts with airlines. Alliance is particularly good for these contracted corporation customers. A strategic revenue sharing partnership could not provide these customers a global presence as alliance could. And these lucrative contracts, are far more important than the majority of Emirates customers: the ME labours and occasionally travellers.

The biggest flaw with the strategic revenue sharing partnership is, Qantas is selling its customer base to Emirates in exchange of such contract. Qantas has contributed almost nil to Emirates's network. This relationship is not equal. While Qantas have equal say in oneworld, it is dominated by Emirates in this relationship. It has everything to loose when married Emirates, but emirates has nothing to loose...

And in a future where QF retracts to a mostly domestic metal operator, it may also decide that having to buy points/miles from oneworld airlines, that it doesn't have revenue sharing agreements with, isn't necessary to get the foreign visitor volume which it has, because of the "competitive" nature of our domestic market, with just two major airline groups.

If Qantas is to become a domestic airline, it could still have bargaining power. Its position in oneworld would not change because of alliance membership. In fact, Qantas could do more codeshare with oneworld members. Without its high cost crew base, Qantas could earn multiple income from selling codeshare seats to customers than flying themselves. Qantas also get revenue from around the world products. If Qantas is to quite oneworld today, its frequent flyer business will be worthless. The AUD$2 billion price tag will evaporate instantly with status match offers from VA, SQ, CX, EK etc.

Last, what you call revenue sharing agreements already exist in airline business as codeshare and joint venture. Both are well practised in alliance business.
 
Noticing the amount of OW advertising in this months magazine, including the competition, it appears QF isn't going anywhere soon and remains committed. Whilst it looks like these bi-lat paternships (eg QF/EK and CX/NZ) now seem to be the rage, is it really consistent for the customer? How many times has an issue on AFF been raised RE lounge access for a VA Gold on NZ (allowed at LAX, but not at YVR). Or the SQ thing where you can fly them, but only use their operated lounges, so when they share a *A lounge, a VA Gold is out of luck.

You would have to think that QF get reasonable DOM traffic from OW inbound. In addition, the ability for RTW bookings etc. I really can't see QF choosing to leave OW, but there is nothing stopping them having strong partnerships with AA/LA etc and now EK.

Then there is the VA issue. Whilst JB doesn't seem keen, what if his (eventual) replacement decides to join say, *A? If QF have already left OW they would really be on the back foot and such a move could punish QF Dom. I just can't see them leaving, more as a protective measure/insurance than anything else...
 
Travelling recently on QF9 and QF10 (admittedly only a sample of one flight each way, not several) I noted the largely Caucasian makeup of the passengers. While one cannot always tell and I obviously could not introduce myself and ask each passenger, most were pretty likely to be Australians. Any passengers I spoke with (and there were a few) had an Australian accent, bar one Indian who joined in DXB on the way over.

So one huge difficulty QF has (and there may be exceptions, such as when a rugby team plays in Oz or the Ashes or Boxing Day tests are on) is that QF may either not be good at marketing to foreigners or its fares may often be priced above the direct or indirect flights offered by competitors.

It's hard to see how QF with its unions, relatively high wages, allegedly quite generous conditions and so on can compete with Asian and Middle Eastern airlines, or indeed a Turkish Airlines model if that entity started flying its own metal to Oz. The USA routes may be an exception, as the US-based airlines probably have similarly high costs, although even there QF has some (limited) non-USA competition from FJ and NZ, as well as HA.
 
Well, all I can say as an (ex-)extremely loyal Qantas passenger is that as long as Qantas keeps treating "me" like a captive milking cow, I will do my best to stay clear. I recently bought a QF ticket on QF metal from MEL-HAM-MEL, but the flights HAM-MEL-HAM on the same metal with QF flight numbers were about $800-$900 cheaper (note that it was flying discount Y; which made the discrepancy around 30%-40% of the total cost). I tried multiple dates and they all came back with similar results. So these days I do check Qantas prices if my travel originates outside Australia, but I am very cautious of buying QF tickets for travels originating from Australia.

Another issue has been that a large number of OpUps have been reported recently by people on QF tickets flying Emirates; whilst as a WP I think my last QF OpUp was about 2 years ago. So if I end up having to buy a QF ticket, why not book it on EK metal with apparently far greater chance of OpUp than QF's own metal?

Oh well, another Aussie icon... :-(



Travelling recently on QF9 and QF10 (admittedly only a sample of one flight each way, not several) I noted the largely Caucasian makeup of the passengers. While one cannot always tell and I obviously could not introduce myself and ask each passenger, most were pretty likely to be Australians. Any passengers I spoke with (and there were a few) had an Australian accent, bar one Indian who joined in DXB on the way over.

So one huge difficulty QF has (and there may be exceptions, such as when a rugby team plays in Oz or the Ashes or Boxing Day tests are on) is that QF may either not be good at marketing to foreigners or its fares may often be priced above the direct or indirect flights offered by competitors.

It's hard to see how QF with its unions, relatively high wages, allegedly quite generous conditions and so on can compete with Asian and Middle Eastern airlines, or indeed a Turkish Airlines model if that entity started flying its own metal to Oz. The USA routes may be an exception, as the US-based airlines probably have similarly high costs, although even there QF has some (limited) non-USA competition from FJ and NZ, as well as HA.
 
hossein.au, since I was only travelling on QF because another party insisted - I much prefer SQ, PR and so on - I understand your comment about QF treating you as a 'miling cow.'

However the issue with tickets to or from HAM being cheaper if purchased with HAM end as the originating point is common to almost all international carriers to and from Oz. There is typically more 'traffic' (passengers) originating in Australia so the airlines price return fares accordingly.

Some suggest that with the fall in the A$ to US89 cents, international passenger numbers ex Australia may decline a fair bit. I'm not so convinced: we just love travelling overseas.
 
I don't know know how QF can remain competitive when their prices are so high compared to pretty much everyone else. I was looking at flights to London in January and for the same date/schedule, QF was about $2700 more expensive than MH! I know who I'd be buying my tickets from.
 
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Well, all I can say as an (ex-)extremely loyal Qantas passenger is that as long as Qantas keeps treating "me" like a captive milking cow, I will do my best to stay clear. I recently bought a QF ticket on QF metal from MEL-HAM-MEL, but the flights HAM-MEL-HAM on the same metal with QF flight numbers were about $800-$900 cheaper (note that it was flying discount Y; which made the discrepancy around 30%-40% of the total cost). I tried multiple dates and they all came back with similar results. So these days I do check Qantas prices if my travel originates outside Australia, but I am very cautious of buying QF tickets for travels originating from Australia.

Another issue has been that a large number of OpUps have been reported recently by people on QF tickets flying Emirates; whilst as a WP I think my last QF OpUp was about 2 years ago. So if I end up having to buy a QF ticket, why not book it on EK metal with apparently far greater chance of OpUp than QF's own metal?

Oh well, another Aussie icon... :-(

What you are looking at isn't something isn't exclusive to QF in terms of pricing.

Name me an airline who doesn't price according to the market of origin. It is a well known practise, with many AFF members suggesting you purchase the reverse fairs where possible.

Don't have a go at QF on this one, but instead the entire market for this practise...
 
With Air India also entering the "Kangaroo Route" market later this year - plus opening up their home market to direct flights, one which QF dabbled-in and decided against - and their current marketing undercutting even the cheapest ME carriers (albeit with a stopover westbound), things will only get tougher for the Roo.

If the EK-partnership was the answer to all of QFi's woes - I'm not convinced the right question was being asked.

Regards,

BD
 
BD1959, I agree that Air India will be (at least on price) a serious competitor.

Next year, Philippine Airlines (PR) should begin flying again from MNL to Europe (although it isn't yet clear to what cities as like any carrier that's been absent for a decade or more, it has to be able to get permission to land and takeoff at the times it wants). Philippines is a great stopover since it's got heaps of amazing tropical islands a short flight or in the dry season ferry trip from MNL, so that's a few more posteriors on seats that won't be using QF.

The really big question is 'do Australians really want to fly through the Middle East to Europe.' True, EK and to some extent EY and QR may offer direct flights from DXB, AUH and DOH to European cities, but Asia is a lot more 'similar' to Australia and many of us feel far more comfortable there, especially in Singapore, Bangkok and Honkers (and Manila, but the latter isn't yet a major stopover point due to the lack of direct European flights).

QF may well have made a big mistake in choosing a Middle Eastern hub.

The QF flights I were recently on (MEL - LHR - MEL) were either half full or full (so an overall load factor of 75 to 80 per cent - not bad) but as mattg pointed out when he started the thread, QF used to have one stop flights to LHR or FRA through SIN, HKG and BKK, not just (as it does now) DXB. So - big deal if its one daily flight ex MEL is sometimes full - overall numbers using QF must have declined, EK tieup or no EK tieup. When Mr Joyce boasted about how much bookings to some European airports had increased on QF with the announcement of the EK alliance, I thought 'an increase from 3 a day to 6 is 100 per cent, but it's a low raw number.' Statistics...
 
BD1959, I agree that Air India will be (at least on price) a serious competitor.

Next year, Philippine Airlines (PR) should begin flying again from MNL to Europe (although it isn't yet clear to what cities as like any carrier that's been absent for a decade or more, it has to be able to get permission to land and takeoff at the times it wants).

GA are also attempting to restart flights into London. The major issue I see for both them and PR with respect to regular flyers will be their lack of a credible alliance.



The really big question is 'do Australians really want to fly through the Middle East to Europe.' True, EK and to some extent EY and QR may offer direct flights from DXB, AUH and DOH to European cities, but Asia is a lot more 'similar' to Australia and many of us feel far more comfortable there, especially in Singapore, Bangkok and Honkers (and Manila, but the latter isn't yet a major stopover point due to the lack of direct European flights).

QF may well have made a big mistake in choosing a Middle Eastern hub.

Let's not forget that - for those wanting a ME hub - QR join oneworld within the next 12 months and for those wanting something a little cheaper, UL are also due to join sometime (and I'm not betting this side of Christmas) soon. Those two will offer even more options for OW members at - I would suggest - different ends of the fare spectrum. Personally, I agree with the sentiments of SEA as a hub, but I guess QF did extensive modelling prior to the DXB switch to almost guarantee better returns than SIN. The other consideration - mentioned (I think) in the AFR earlier this week - are those corporate "roadshows" which typically take in places like HKG and SIN on their way to Europe, QF have turned their backs on these sources of revenue.


The QF flights I were recently on (MEL - LHR - MEL) were either half full or full (so an overall load factor of 75 to 80 per cent - not bad) but as mattg pointed out when he started the thread, QF used to have one stop flights to LHR or FRA through SIN, HKG and BKK, not just (as it does now) DXB. So - big deal if its one daily flight ex MEL is sometimes full - overall numbers using QF must have declined, EK tieup or no EK tieup. When Mr Joyce boasted about how much bookings to some European airports had increased on QF with the announcement of the EK alliance, I thought 'an increase from 3 a day to 6 is 100 per cent, but it's a low raw number.' Statistics...

I suppose we won't know for sure until the annual figures come out next year ie after a full-year of the EK/QF "partnership". My fear is that by then, QF will have burned too many bridges, upset too many OW partners (MH and BA - plus the rumoured ongoing bad blood with CX) that it abandons completely OW and becomes just the Tasman-feed for EK. A sort-of antipodean EI if you like.

Regards,

BD
 
Air India's reputation will ensure that I do not use their product. However, AirLanka (UL) will be joining OneWorld sometime in the first half of 2014. And almost certainly they will be flying into MEL (and wishful thinking on my part - PER). If their biz class prices exSIN to Europe are any indication, they will be competitive on the Kangaroo Route. And two nights and a full day on Negombo Beach will beat BOM or DEL any day as a stopover.

Happy wandering

Fred
 
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BD1959, I agree that Air India will be (at least on price) a serious competitor.

The really big question is 'do Australians really want to fly through the Middle East to Europe.' True, EK and to some extent EY and QR may offer direct flights from DXB, AUH and DOH to European cities, but Asia is a lot more 'similar' to Australia and many of us feel far more comfortable there, especially in Singapore, Bangkok and Honkers (and Manila, but the latter isn't yet a major stopover point due to the lack of direct European flights).

QF may well have made a big mistake in choosing a Middle Eastern hub.

The QF flights I were recently on (MEL - LHR - MEL) were either half full or full (so an overall load factor of 75 to 80 per cent - not bad) but as mattg pointed out when he started the thread, QF used to have one stop flights to LHR or FRA through SIN, HKG and BKK, not just (as it does now) DXB. So - big deal if its one daily flight ex MEL is sometimes full - overall numbers using QF must have declined, EK tieup or no EK tieup. When Mr Joyce boasted about how much bookings to some European airports had increased on QF with the announcement of the EK alliance, I thought 'an increase from 3 a day to 6 is 100 per cent, but it's a low raw number.' Statistics...


"Do Australians really want to fly thru the Middle East to Europe?" I'd say, given the volume of flights that EK operate from the Land Down Under, I'd say yes.... Is only the old duffers that are still wining about DXB as a transfer.

Load factors on QFi are reported to be in their mid to high 70's, which is probably why the airfares are still quite high, and booking level on the QF website to Europe are now apparently higher than they have ever been before?

EK are able to fill any spots between DXB and LHR for those pax not insistent on flying their metal, as they are now seemingly slot constrained on the route, so the two extra flights with QF is only ever going to be a benefit for them. On a couple of recent DOM flights, QF and JQ - there have also been several EK tagged travellers heading to parts ex SYD that EK don't head to. BA / CX etc are still having to then book on QF DOM as their pax have no other options.

I'd say that the tie up and partnership, purely from watching what is going on, is possibly working for them.

I am no fan of DXB as an airport, but having recently done a run on MH via KUL (in J - on one of their cheap-as-chips-probably-losing-them-money deals) I am no more enamoured by the lounges in KUL than I am sitting in McDonalds. The EK lounges at DXB are quite superior (even the standard J lounge), and the SYD to DXB leg first I find is actually easier on ones bones than the longer SIN or KUL to LHR long second sector. I found myself getting into Heathrow after the "short" hop from Dubai a much nicer experience (and I am a fan of SIN as an airport).
 
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