Tanami Desert and a jaded P1

[karen blancfield]

But apart from the pistol club and watching road trains, the Alice stop was, as said, unwanted and a pain. So we did what we do best - a night on the town. Matt_01 and Buzz could likely picture the scene....

We made many friends there, and almost ended up with an entourage of dozens to accompany us to the Tanami

Pity you didn’t call on a local AFFer.... there’s lots to see here!

 

[RooFlyer]

Yes, this antenna is meant to be a miracle - and it did work to an extent. At all times during our trip it faithfully and correctly allowed the nav tools to plot our real position.

That's interesting ... I thought the navigation thingys would work off the satellites... but maybe i'm going beyond a friendly enquiry now

But it gives me the excuse to recount when I was an actual field geologist, waaaaay back, no sat-navs and the like for us! It was only towards the end when we used to use dinner-plate sized aerials on a tripod to use the satellites to put in grid base stations - and even then the yanks still had the deliberate error built into the signal. Who remembers that! Field computers were called 'luggables', and had to be checked into our Anset (yes, Ansett ) flights #. Field navigation was by map and dead reckoning, or the view from a hill top. Those were the days - used to head out in the morning by myself, not telling anyone where I was going, in the top End or around Tennant Creek or the Murchison in WA. Two radio skeds a day by UHF (or VHF???), IF you remembered to choose the correct plug settings on the aerial and if you managed to get the company frequency tuned in to talk to the guy in Adelaide. Then we did a Survival Course, led by a couple of ex SAS types. Took a lot of the lassaize-faire fun out of field work ... SOPs and all that

# Western Mining was a big customer of Ansett. they had an Ansett person with a booking screen in Head Office in Melbourne.

 

[tgh]

An ex employee spent some time running ( with a bulldozer) seismic lines out in the boonies
All he had was a monocular compass and a reputation for arrow straight runs.

 

[kookaburra75]

That's interesting ... I thought the navigation thingys would work off the satellites... but maybe i'm going beyond a friendly enquiry now

But it gives me the excuse to recount when I was an actual field geologist, waaaaay back, no sat-navs and the like for us! It was only towards the end when we used to use dinner-plate sized aerials on a tripod to use the satellites to put in grid base stations - and even then the yanks still had the deliberate error built into the signal. Who remembers that! Field computers were called 'luggables', and had to be checked into our Anset (yes, Ansett ) flights #. Field navigation was by map and dead reckoning, or the view from a hill top. Those were the days - used to head out in the morning by myself, not telling anyone where I was going, in the top End or around Tennant Creek or the Murchison in WA. Two radio skeds a day by UHF (or VHF???), IF you remembered to choose the correct plug settings on the aerial and if you managed to get the company frequency tuned in to talk to the guy in Adelaide. Then we did a Survival Course, led by a couple of ex SAS types. Took a lot of the lassaize-faire fun out of field work ... SOPs and all that

# Western Mining was a big customer of Ansett. they had an Ansett person with a booking screen in Head Office in Melbourne.

Ahh, but Juddles, what would these young things know about the "good old days"? As a former surveyor working in the Kimberely and the NT, we started off with doing star and sun shots for position and azimuth, and then later lugged the big GPS units (each unit was the size of a modern suitcase) around as well. I remember having a pair of survey quality GPS units in my vehicle, at $250,000 each. As well as rescuing errant/misplaced Geologists and Engineers. We probably even bumped into each other at the Swan Hotel in Tennant Creek, but just didn't know it then.

And it was HF radio (shortwave), with the Flying Doctor bands and the plugs on the attena to change the frequency. And we did our contracts by telex (google that kiddos)

Thoroughly enjoyed your trip report, including the photos of the middle of no where - but would disagree about your comments on The Alice - it's ok.

 

[karen blancfield]

I

Ahh, but Juddles, what would these young things know about the "good old days"? As a former surveyor working in the Kimberely and the NT, we started of with doing star and sun shots for position and azimuth, and then later lugged the big GPS units (each unit was the size of a modern suitcase) around as well. I remember having a pair of survey quality GPS units in my vehicle, at $250,000 each. As well as rescuing errant/misplaced Geologists and Engineers. We probably even bumped into each other at the Swan Hotel in Tennant Creek, but just didn't know it then.

And it was HF radio (shortwave), with the Flying Doctor bands and the plugs on the attena to change the frequency. And we did our contracts by telex (google that kiddos)

Thoroughly enjoyed your trip report, including the photos of the middle of no where - but would disagree about your comments on The Alice - it's ok.

It’s better than ok.....I’m biased but also speak from very long experience here.

 

[Matt_01]

So we did what we do best - a night on the town. Matt_01 and Buzz could likely picture the scene....

So a cup of tea and off to bed early.

She said to us simply "you two look like trouble".

I can hardly believe that, such cheek.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Is it my imagination that the pic of the ute and trailer above shows the wheels of the trailer well behind its CoG - meaning its front presses down on the rear of the ute, hence the problems? And why the really long trailer-ute linkage - more then the rear door opening arc?

View attachment 195106

If the trailer axle is too close to the tow vehicle's rear axle you would have a very unstable trailer. The longer the distance between the tow vehicle's rear axle and the trailers axle the less it is likely to sway (fishtail). For a 4WD trailer though a very long trailer would limit how rough a track you could negotiate and in particular say steep creek crossings (ie vertical) or sharp hairpins (ie horizontal) on mountain tracks.

COG for a trailer/caravan is not a fixed thing as it depends how you load your trailer/caravan and where the heavier items are located. So COG does not have to be where it may visually look to be.

In Australia tow ball weight is generally about 10% of the weight of the trailer. In Europe they use lighter tow ball loads.

You do not want a trailer with a negative tow ball weight as that will make the vehicle handle worse and this will be unsafe.

And why the really long trailer-ute linkage - more then the rear door opening arc?

Well it allows that rear door to open yes, but I think you will find that is due it being a coupling that allows a full 360 degree of movement in both planes (of which there are many designs.

Normal tow ball couplings do not allow for the wide range of movements that one can get on 4WD tracks.

Vehicle suspension sag. Standard suspension can only take quite a limited load. The load carrying capacity of many station wagon 4WDs is actually quite limited. Say only 600kg. That 600kg is for an unladen vehicle and so does not include passengers, full fuel tanks , luggage etc!. Then deduct the weight of the bull bar, roof rack, what is on the roof rack, tow bar etc. If you have two hefty male occupants that is 200kg. Full fuel tanks say 120 kg. If your tow ball weight is say 200kg then you have hit 520kg. That leaves only 60kg, which the bull bar alone will take it over.

Then there is the tow ball weight of 100 (trailers) -300kg (larger trailers/large caravans)! So no wonder you will see many tow vehicles sagging as the weight is simply too much. After market suspensions can stop the sag, and in some cases also increase the legal axle load.

Many 4WD's I see on the road even without towing a trailer or caravan are clearly being driven where they would be exceeding their legal GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass ).



If you would like to know more the following article is a good introduction;

4x4 vehicle loading and GVM explained

How to safely and legally load your four-wheel drive

www.whichcar.com.au

 

[RooFlyer]

We probably even bumped into each other at the Swan Hotel in Tennant Creek,

I don’t think mine was the Swan ... don’t remember that one. We went to the joint with a squash court attached. Demon! This was in the early 1990s.

 

[karen blancfield]

I don’t think mine was the Swan ... don’t remember that one. We went to the joint with a squash court attached. Demon! This was in the early 1990s.

Dolly Pot Inn was the great restaurant at the squash courts. Owner Karen Sheldon is still very active in NT particularly in training for hospitality. Dolly Pot was memorable ... obviously.

 

[juddles]

If the trailer axle is too close to the tow vehicle's rear axle you would have a very unstable trailer. The longer the distance between the tow vehicle's rear axle and the trailers axle the less it is likely to sway (fishtail). For a 4WD trailer though a very long trailer would limit how rough a track you could negotiate and in particular say steep creek crossings (ie vertical) or sharp hairpins (ie horizontal) on mountain tracks.

COG for a trailer/caravan is not a fixed thing as it depends how you load your trailer/caravan and where the heavier items are located. So COG does not have to be where it may visually look to be.

In Australia tow ball weight is generally about 10% of the weight of the trailer. In Europe they use lighter tow ball loads.

You do not want a trailer with a negative tow ball weight as that will make the vehicle handle worse and this will be unsafe.

Well it allows that rear door to open yes, but I think you will find that is due it being a coupling that allows a full 360 degree of movement in both planes (of which there are many designs.

Normal tow ball couplings do not allow for the wide range of movements that one can get on 4WD tracks.

Vehicle suspension sag. Standard suspension can only take quite a limited load. The load carrying capacity of many station wagon 4WDs is actually quite limited. Say only 600kg. That 600kg is for an unladen vehicle and so does not include passengers, full fuel tanks , luggage etc!. Then deduct the weight of the bull bar, roof rack, what is on the roof rack, tow bar etc. If you have two hefty male occupants that is 200kg. Full fuel tanks say 120 kg. If your tow ball weight is say 200kg then you have hit 520kg. That leaves only 60kg, which the bull bar alone will take it over.

Then there is the tow ball weight of 100 (trailers) -300kg (larger trailers/large caravans)! So no wonder you will see many tow vehicles sagging as the weight is simply too much. After market suspensions can stop the sag, and in some cases also increase the legal axle load.

Many 4WD's I see on the road even without towing a trailer or caravan are clearly being driven where they would be exceeding their legal GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass ).



If you would like to know more the following article is a good introduction;

4x4 vehicle loading and GVM explained

How to safely and legally load your four-wheel drive

www.whichcar.com.au

The "tow ball" design was driven by the need of the Patriot camper - I think it is referred to as a "DO35" - these are a beast that we were not familiar with, but they are absolutely fantastic. Too complicated to explain in words how they work, but they are easy to attach and detach, and very secure.

I tink the towball weight of the Patriot is about 150kg - so similar to your 10% weight - and as you said, it is affected by the loading of the trailer. Once we sorted out overall suspension issues the trailer was an absolute joy to tow.

I like your comment regarding GVM. We investigated this a lot. Essentially once you add a lot of gadgets you need to consider this. The margin of load to remain within GVM is absolutely small for off road vehicles - a couple of hundred kilos and you are over. Essentially most serious campers who load up their vehicle are out of the legal zone. We are trying to get the vehicle's GVM updated - but it is a bureaucratic and hard procedure...

 

[juddles]

That's interesting ... I thought the navigation thingys would work off the satellites... but maybe i'm going beyond a friendly enquiry now
....

Rooflyer, you are again spot on. It appears that a few sentences were lost when I consolidated my post - sorry but it was wine-o'clock I was saying that we didn't use the radio much, but played heaps with the Hema maps setup.

Speaking specifically about the antenna you referred to (the one on the bullbar I presume?) - I am no fan. We didn't really use it. On the major highways we used UHF to listen to truckie chitchat (the usual channel 40) but on the Tanami we only passed 3 trucks in 1000km! I am no radio geek but the antenna to me can simply be summed up with one word (sorry) as a "wank". They sell because they look tough and serious. I personally would go for something mounted way high up on the roof rack......

The Hema setup was far more successful - as I said its GPS never failed in all our travels. I am just so against this though - what is the fun of being remote when you have such gadgets??

 

[juddles]

I

It’s better than ok.....I’m biased but also speak from very long experience here.

- but would disagree about your comments on The Alice - it's ok.

In hindsight I was probably extremely unfair about Alice. To put it into perspective our trip was about the bush, not towns, so the fact that we were delayed in Alice and lost valuable bush time probably gave me a jaundiced view

 

[juddles]

Ahh, but Juddles, what would these young things know about the "good old days"? ......
lugged the big GPS units (each unit was the size of a modern suitcase) around as well. I remember having a pair of survey quality GPS units in my vehicle, at $250,000 each. .....

I recall in the 90's when I worked in fraud with the good old DSS - we had to interview naughty people - which required us to tape record the interview in three copies (yes, tapes!) The unit to do this was also about the size of a medium suitcase. It recorded the audio simultaneously on three cassettes - one for me, one for the baddie, and one for the legal team. We lovingly referred to these units as "Russian walkmen"

 

[juddles]

So a cup of tea and off to bed early.


I can hardly believe that, such cheek.

At least she didn't immediately call the police. I am sure she would have if we had rocked up with you and Buzz

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I like your comment regarding GVM. We investigated this a lot. Essentially once you add a lot of gadgets you need to consider this. The margin of load to remain within GVM is absolutely small for off road vehicles - a couple of hundred kilos and you are over. Essentially most serious campers who load up their vehicle are out of the legal zone. We are trying to get the vehicle's GVM updated - but it is a bureaucratic and hard procedure...

Yes, and there can be other limitations too. For example in Victoria the legal towing limit for the mass of the trailer/caravan is 1.5 times the tare (empty) mass of he tow vehicle. There are a number of 4WDs advertised with a towing capacity (braked) of 3.5 tonne. But the tare mass of say Dual Cab Ute 4WD vehicles is say 2 tonne and so the legal towing capacity is only 3 tonne. There is also a limit on the total mass of the tow vehicle and trailer (CGM) of say 6 tonne. So if your two vehicle is loaded up, it too means that the boasted 3.5 tonne cannot legally be reached.

The Landcruiser 200 series is heavier with a tare of 2.6 tonne. Its rated towing capacity of 3.5 tonne can therefore just be reached as long as the GVM of the Landcruiser is not exceeded. And as discussed earlier often would be, meaning that legal limits for both the GVM of the vehicle and possibly the CGM of the combined vehicle and caravan/trailer may be exceeded.

I was just up Cobram way on the weekend and was told the story of of someone having bought a large new caravan there and set off towing it from the dealer with his Jeep Wrangler only to be stopped down the highway by the police who advised him that he was towing illegally and made him call out another vehicle to tow his caravan away.

 

[stm1sydney]

@juddles, grateful for your thoughts (positive and negative) on the Patriot camper. Thanks.

 

[juddles]

@juddles, grateful for your thoughts (positive and negative) on the Patriot camper. Thanks.

Hey there!

This is hard. Because I must advise that my experience with these campers is restricted.

Essentially the Patriot offering is top notch. Hence them winning so many awards. But there were small details I didn't like:

1 - The version we had did not have a separate tap - water point. So to wash your hands meant deploying the kitchen sink. I know they have changed this now.

2.- The awning, or shelter, is fantastic in that it covers the side and rear of the trailer - but this all relies on the integrity of one central pivot point which is in my opinion under-engineered. We broke it twice. Easy to fix but still not perfect.

3.- The main storage compartment is simply a hollow - not slide-out drawers or similar. Again something they are advancing on.

4.- The rig we had involved a pop-up tent/enclosure that requires you to unzip the top to deploy, and stuff everything back in to close up again. I hate zips in general. But we were using it as an overnight thing. If you were staying a few days these things become less tedious

5.- The Patriot had great storage in secure, airtight compartments. But nowhere specific for jerries of fuel or firewood, etc.

It was great that immediately after our trip there was a 4wd/camper expo in Adelaide. So with the trip fresh in my memory I got to see most of the alternatives.

I won't go into it completely now, but what I saw was many different philosophies, many with great ideas, but with not a single one standing out. Some had better storage, some had better minor features, some had sturdier awnings. But at the end of all that I still thought the Patriot was the winner. But the one supplier who was absent from the show was Drifta.

I have a very keen interest in Drifta. On the trip we used some minor gear from them, from bags to cookware, and it was perfect. I understand that they do not get involved in the commercial competitions, so maybe when Patriot won, Drifta was not in the race? In any case, I will be visiting Drifta in Brisbane soon. Their campers have yet another philosophy.

 

[stm1sydney]

Thanks very much for that write-up @juddles.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

It was great that immediately after our trip there was a 4wd/camper expo in Adelaide. So with the trip fresh in my memory I got to see most of the alternatives.

I won't go into it completely now, but what I saw was many different philosophies, many with great ideas, but with not a single one standing out.

Yes these are always great fun.

Some companies just imitate one another, but there are always some going their own way too, and these for me tend to be the really interesting ones (even if one will never buy them).

 

[juddles]

Thanks very much for that write-up @juddles.

You are welcome

Campers have so many features it is hard to address (or even remember) many of these, but if you have specific questions please ask

Expanding on my last post, I must admit I absolutely loved the Patriot. Very good build, fantastic design to make an extremely compact trailer include so very very much well thought out things. I mentioned in the last post that it was airtight - should have mentioned it is actually pressurised - which helps a hell of a lot when dust is an issue. I loved the general layout - essentially on each side of the trailer the doors open down - creating an instant workspace. When you deploy the "tent", the side panels affected have zippered internal access so they are accessible also with the tent up. Every single thing worked very well. A true joy to use. The main misgivings I had, as already stated, is the flimsy part of the awning, and the lack of an external tap(this last point being resolved already on new models).

At the Adelaide show the main philosophy differences were emphasis on certain aspects. All of them claim easy set up - which is true if once you get the knack. But the Patriot awning and tent would be a challenge to set up solo unless you are a 6'7" superman like myself - definitely a two person job for most. I understand the newer versions have a hard case lid that is easier to deploy.

Some designs are focussed on storage, others on super-awnings, others on the ease of use. I loved seeing one at the show (brand not remembered) that was the "Mercedes" of camper trailers - a very swish and modern looking thing. Sort of made you feel like you were in a luxury pod. But when I later mentioned this one to my wife (along with the sale price of $100,000!!) she asked straight away: "Doe's it have a dishwasher?" Of course it doesn't, but I understood her question to be perfectly reasonable - if someone is forking out that sort of money it is not an obscene ask

All these decent trailers are around the $50k mark - so one would expect a good product. And if you were going to invest in same, I would assume most normal people would only do so when the trailer was going to be their actual home for many many months. When you are talking that sort of investment, I advise to do what my mate and I did - rent one and try it out first. We loved the Patriot, but.....

I have not yet seen a Drifta - only seen videos. I love their overall philosophy, and the trailer design is basically very very good. The one I have seen has the "tent" on top. Very easy to deploy in minutes (as per their videos). And this is important if you do a trip like my last one where you are constantly on the move. But the flaw I see so far in their design is that the easily setup tent is just a tent with a bed in it - so no separate area to actually change clothing, etc. With the Patriot, when you deploy the tent it includes an area above the trailer with pre-made bed, but also a ground level section that is perfect for changing in.

Some features that worked perfectly with the Patriot: the slide out fridge/sink setup. The variety of compartments for storage. The drop-down hatches that double as excellent working spaces. There is a gas two-burner stove that you pull out and manually connect a gas bottle to - worked well. And a Weber BBQ that swings out easily that was also a joy to use. Lighting was great - all compartments have LED lights, and you can attach more to the awning. Great electrical connections - including inside the "tent" with USB and cig outlets. (On that point, the guy that rented us the trailer included a plug-in small fan that he got from the internet - this you plug in inside the tent and suspend it from the roof - he said this was a priceless addition - and he was right! Even at night in the desert it can be sweltering (especially if you have driven all day with the collapsed tent and bedding absorbing half of the past decades Climate Change ) - that fan was absolutely priceless indeed.

A sad need, but these days theft is an issue in any remote Aussie areas with abundant aboriginal youths And the Patriot trailer was very easy to secure with just a couple of pad locks. Essentially the rig becomes an unattractive cube (unattractive to thieves) when you close the doors and lock them.

The trailer we rented had a mobile chemical toilet, but we actually left this at "home". Being boys, a shovel was all we needed. And it also came with a swing-out hot water service, but we never used that, as at the end of each day the tank water was over 50 degrees (bloody Climate Change again rearing its ugly head ) This particular hot water system was gas, but most modern trailers have compact diesel ones - which I have never used, but am told they are fantastic.

We had issues with weight in the whole rig (car included), but the Patriot trailer itself was an absolute dream - well balanced and rugged - no faults there.

As @RooFlyer would be accustomed to, I am used to camping at bare basics level - so a trailer like the Patriot was simply heaven. And as the years go past, the electrical revolution is omni-present in the latest offerrings - the simple roll-out solar blankets these days easily keep up with the night light needs and running the fridge. This is something that I suspect that Drifta are big on - the taking advantage of these new solar power and battery advances. I beleive they offer a rig with an electric motorbike mounted on the tow bar. And for the keen fishermen, a rig can be set up to also power a small craft with electric motor.

Again, so many details that I cannot address in just one post.

Last comment is about garbage. I am a minimalist, so when my mate bought some fancy garbage pouches that attach over the spare wheels, I frowned. But these are fantastic in use.