Taking Qantas to NCAT

[Pinkysunkiss]

Well you'd be looking at contract law, really. not consumer law. Once you cancel the contract is ended. So...

And contract law might be tenuous depending on your circumstances...

Sigh I feel so hopeless. In order not to cancel the long waited family trip we have to scoop out big money for it. No wonder Qantas doesn’t care.

 

[antycbr]

Sigh I feel so hopeless. In order not to cancel the long waited family trip we have to scoop out big money for it. No wonder Qantas doesn’t care.

The only way to tell them how you feel is to vote with your wallet.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Well you'd be looking at contract law, really. not consumer law. Once you cancel the contract is ended. So...

And contract law might be tenuous depending on your circumstances...

Some obligations survive termination/cessation. It's an area for trained practitioners.

 

[Anna]

Is there an update today?

 

[papeto]

Is there an update today?

Hi Anna, thanks for asking.
We had our NCAT hearing yesterday. The session was booked for 90 min and we took up the full time . Me and my partner attended and a sole representative from Qantas customer service. It was the same person we met during the arbitration discussion. The tribunal member asked us to present our case first. I touched on the Federal Jurisdiction issue and re- iterated that in our view it was a breach of contract and falls outside the Montreal Convention. We didn’t get too much push back on our position and only spent about 15 min discussing it. The member than went through our cost claim and discussed with Qantas what they agreed to and what they didn’t. In summary Qantas was prepared to re- imburse direct costs incurred and lost bookings, but baulked at paying for lost holiday days ( we lost 4 days off our iteniary) and the loss of business class ( we flew economy). The member noted that the direct expenses were economic costs and the holidays and business class were non- economic loss. We can only claim the non- economic if it was for relaxation - I would hope Business class and holiday qualify. The member spent a lot of time understanding the costs and how they were arrived at. She didn’t agree with some of our claculations so we expect some adjustments.

She than asked Qantas to clarify their offer to us, again it was around the detail of their offer and whether they concede they were at fault ( They didn’t)

She did make the point that any compensation was for loss and that you can’t gain anything i.e. it should make you whole but not more.

As part of Qantas offer they wanted some points back ( they had single handled refunded some of our points after cancelling our ticket). We spoke about this at lenght so it be interesting to see how the member decides.

In summary, we are cautiously optimistic we won the argument that it was contract breach outside the Montreal Convention and therefore could be heard by NCAT. We believe we’ll get back our direct costs, but the big question is how much indirect or non- economic costs we’ll get.

The member indicated we’ll get a decision next week, which would be super fast or could be a bad omen. In a previous QCAT matter it took them 3 months so I would be surprised if its that quick. Here’s hoping for a good outcome.

 

[Sprucegoose]

In summary, we are cautiously optimistic we won the argument that it was contract breach outside the Montreal Convention and therefore could be heard by NCAT. We believe we’ll get back our direct costs, but the big question is how much indirect or non- economic costs we’ll get.

Ok, well done, and so far, so good.

The fact QFA didn't have formal representation probably reflects they don't feel that an adverse direction would be seen as precedent-setting?
I reckon the outcome will be all your cash (economic) costs refunded.
There never will be any acknowledgement of liability from QFA. Even if jurisdictionally directed, I believe NCAT will struggle to value those items claimed that were not paid for in cash (non-economic), for example, holiday days, loss of J class comfort, or even points - despite those items all having some reference value.

If there is any offer from QFA (which may represent money, points or airfare) as a goodwill inducement to settle, it would involve a Deed of Release. In this case, post an update before you sign it!

Good luck. I hope it works for you.

 

[eastwest101]

and business class were non- economic loss

So back at the end of August @papeto's claim was for, due to being abandoned in BNE on a J Reward booking which was SYD-BNE (QF) BNE-DOH-ATH (QR), after repeated attempts to rectify a cancelled and rescheduled QF SYD-BNE flight at the start of this itinerary and get them to BNE on time to catch the BNE_DOH leg. Qantas failed to do so and the pax was abandoned in BNE at the beginning of an international itinerary.


The claim was:

• Cost of QR flights re-booked ( flew economy, but original ticket was business BNE-DOH-ATH )
• Cost of reservations missed ( hotel, flights etc) due to cancellation and until we could get back to our original itinerary and we couldn't get our money back
• Compensation for not flying business class as originally booked ( claim is difference between economy and business)
• Compensation for holiday days lost due to the cancellation

So the NCAT Member (decision maker), is indicating that they will be able to economically quantify point 1, point 2 but not Points 3 and 4 ?

This whole notion that the difference between flying business class and economy class as not an "economic" consideration just seems a bit weird to me and flies in the face of evidence clearly seen in the price differential between flying J class and Y class.

I would have thought that "winning" dot point 3 would have been they key for other passengers in this situation, and I maintain that if Qantas "wins" dot point 3 then that gives them free licence to market J class rewards and then downgrade to Y on the day without compensation. Actually scratch that - they could offload people out of J and Y class and lock them all up in the baggage hold and still maintain they got the pax to their final destination! After all - according to NCAT the class of travel is now a non-economic/unquantifyiable loss?

 

[Guvner]

I would have thought that "winning" dot point 3 would have been they key for other passengers in this situation, and I maintain that if Qantas "wins" dot point 3 then that gives them free licence to market J class rewards and then downgrade to Y on the day without compensation. Actually scratch that - they could offload people out of J and Y class and lock them all up in the baggage hold and still maintain they got the pax to their final destination! After all - according to NCAT the class of travel is now a non-economic/unquantifyiable loss?

Please don't give Alan any ideas...

 

[Danger]

Wonderful news, papeto.

 

[Mr H]

Dot point there is impossible to quantify. The complainant should have paid for tickets in the same class as the missed flight and claimed back for them under dot point one. Dot point four could be costed as the value of the appropriate number of days of annual leave if the complainant is waged.

 

[eastwest101]

Dot point there is impossible to quantify. The complainant should have paid for tickets in the same class as the missed flight and claimed back for them under dot point one. Dot point four could be costed as the value of the appropriate number of days of annual leave if the complainant is waged.

I can see what you are saying there that with dot point 3, same class of travel on same airline.

• Compensation for not flying business class as originally booked ( claim is difference between economy and business)

Are you saying that @papeto could quantify the loss by booking a last-minute fully paid J fare BNE-DOH-ATH on the soonest flight available upon arriving in BNE? It sure would be tempting, and whether its a travel insurance claim, or attempting to claim back the cost of this fare from Qantas, it would seem that the price of a fare like this would put the amount in dispute in the many thousands of dollars, if not tens of thousands of dollars. Obviously, if @papeto had unlimited funds and was prepared to dispute this and follow up legally, then I would be interested in how Qantas would defend this, as it was clearly their negligence that led to the late SYD-BNE flight and then the pax missing their BNE-DOH-ATH onwards flights.

Anyway - it sounds like @papeto "won" dot point one (the cost of last-minute walk-up QR economy class fare from BNE-DOH-ATH) and hopefully, I would argue that winning dot point 1 with the same class of travel as originally booked would have been even better, because this might be a big enough number for someone in Qantas to notice, and backtrack how this all happened. It certainly sounds like @papeto made attempts to bring forward rescheduled SYD-BNE J flights to maintain sensible connection times in BNE, and was blocked and frustrated by Qantas reps in opening reward class J sets for this first SYD-BNE leg resulting in an entire international itinerary being blown up. So a pyrrhic victory for Qantas in that their yield management might have preserved the "value" of an empty J seat on a SYD-BNE service but has probably cost Qantas directly anywhere from $4K-$15K plus their costs of dealing with this mess.

I still cannot believe @papeto got abandoned in BNE at the very start of a complex SYD-BNE-DOH-ATH international itinerary with a "too bad, so sad" attitude, and had to take Qantas to NCAT to recover the funds spent to get their international trip back on track.

 

[MrJetset]

Once again, TI doesn't cover new flights. It only covers reimbursement for what your original flights cost and only if you didn't get a cash or points refund.

The OP got the points back so TI would not pay out. They would consider him 'made whole.'

He may be able to claim under Travel Delay, extra hotel costs etc, but not the cost of new flights.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The other thing to consider is that a general principal in breach of contract is that you should look to mitigate your losses. Would buying a full-fare last minute business class ticket be ‘mitigating losses’? Or would that be acceptable? It’s a potential issue that if decided against the claimant could prove costly.

‘Loss of enjoyment’ can be claimed, but the circumstances appear limited. Moore v Scenic Tours was the case that decided you could claim. In that case a passenger booked a scenic cruise which promised to be the ‘trip of a lifetime’, but ended up being mostly on a bus due to adverse river conditions. And the boat used for the few portion on the river was not the same luxury as promised in the brochure. The Moores were successful in their claim, but the question would be if an airfare or class of travel is in the same category? I would suspect something like the ‘Captain’s Choice’ chartered RTW flights and tours would be, and maybe something like an Antarctic sightseeing flight.

 

[Mr H]

The other thing to consider is that a general principal in breach of contract is that you should look to mitigate your losses. Would buying a full-fare last minute business class ticket be ‘mitigating losses’? Or would that be acceptable? It’s a potential issue that if decided against the claimant could prove costly.

I am not a lawyer, but if the OP had originally decided to shell out for business class (using points) then it would seem reasonable to me to look for the cheapest available business class ticket to continue the journey. If it is all about mitigating losses then it would be cheaper to have returned to base and forgotten about the holiday.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I am not a lawyer, but if the OP had originally decided to shell out for business class (using points) then it would seem reasonable to me to look for the cheapest available business class ticket to continue the journey. If it is all about mitigating losses then it would be cheaper to have returned to base and forgotten about the holiday.

Agree. And that’s the interesting question. Could you buy business class, and if so, any one?

 

[MrJetset]

I believe when the OP travelled was a peak travel period around school holidays and premium cabins across QF, ME3 and possibly others were full so it’s a moot point.

Something to consider in the current environment with low inventory is that even if practice is to be reaccommodated, you may not able to be.

I made a QF to EK F connection at BNE 6 hours for this exact reason. I didn’t want to risk IRROPS with a 3 hour connection as there would be no F alternative.

 

[Vic]

In relation to the economic cost of point 3, the difference between business and economy
I suspect Qantas may have already provided an economic cost for this issue. @papeto mentioned that Qantas asked for the refunded points to be return back to Qantas.
I understand that the principle here is that if Qantas is paying for the new economy fare then they need to have retained the original payment in the form of the points.

However, it seems to me that those points represent the difference between what was booked and the alternative of the economy airfare. These are in fact the cost of having to fly economy instead of business.
Yes, I'm making a pretty vague argument here, but I'm sure a good lawyer could finese it into something useful.

 

[papeto]

A quick update. I phoned NCAT yesterday. The tribunal is doing a on the papers hearing on the 22 Dec 22 which we don’ thave to attend. The member did mention it to us in the hearing, but I had assumed it would occur the same week as our initial hearing. Oh well maybe Santa leaves us some cash under the tree this year.

 

[MARTINE]

A quick update. I phoned NCAT yesterday. The tribunal is doing a on the papers hearing on the 22 Dec 22 which we don’ thave to attend. The member did mention it to us in the hearing, but I had assumed it would occur the same week as our initial hearing. Oh well maybe Santa leaves us some cash under the tree this year.

Good luck @papeto - lets hope it works out for you

 

[Anna]

Have you got the outcome yet?