SYD curfew

[docjames]

Ok, dont shoot me for starting another SYD curfew thread

It has been in the press recently so it got me thinking. :shock:

Note this could equally apply to any Australian airport with an existing curfew (ADL, I'm looking at you!)
I was canvassing thoughts on a "penalty" system similar to Heathrow.

ie.
Airlines are allowed a certain quota of out-of-huors arrivals/departures per month/season/year and they are allocated their quote based on number of flights. Then, the a/c is allocated "points" based on noise.

ie. an 380 will be < a 744 but an A320 will be less than both etc.

Note this is for scheduled flights that experience delays, but this would be a way to minimise disruptions, but it would be up to the airlines to manage use of their "penalties" over the course of (month/season/year) but would prevent crazy scenarios such as the CBR-ASL flight that was one minute late and diverted to MEL.

Here's a nice summary from boeing on how the heathrow one works:


Boeing Company


Thoughts? Would this be an acceptable compromise to residents of allowing arrivals and departures in unusual circumstances but keeping the curfew relatively in place?

Of course, the limits would be the hard to negotiate part......

 

[drron]

Wouldn't have pleased the bloke on ACA last night who has made 500000+ complaints to BNE over aircraft noise.:shock:

 

[straitman]

Wouldn't have pleased the bloke on ACA last night who has made 500000+ complaints to BNE over aircraft noise.:shock:

An utter nutter :!:

What an absolute waste of time and a life. :shock:

 

[Flying Fox]

Wouldn't have pleased the bloke on ACA last night who has made 500000+ complaints to BNE over aircraft noise.:shock:

Was it Kevin Rudd?

 

[NYCguy]

Wouldn't have pleased the bloke on ACA last night who has made 500000+ complaints to BNE over aircraft noise.:shock:

Did anyone say "vexatious"?

 

[docjames]

Wouldn't have pleased the bloke on ACA last night who has made 500000+ complaints to BNE over aircraft noise.:shock:

LOL - I'd say BAC are filing those in the circular file by now......


It just struck me that a penalty/quota system seems a "fair" system to mix some protection of households with some leeway for airport/airlines.

 

[Dave Noble]

The current system works well imo. Very well defined what is permitted and leaves little ambiguity over what can be done.

Dave

 

[codash1099]

An utter nutter :!:

What an absolute waste of time and a life. :shock:

Oh I don't know. At least it keeps him off the streets.

 

[docjames]

The current system works well imo. Very well defined what is permitted and leaves little ambiguity over what can be done.

Dave

I guess that's one for "not better" then!

I agree the current system is "well defined" however:

I dont think pax affected would say the current system "works well" when they have to either :
- circle sydney for an hour waiting to land
- cant depart becuase they're 5 mins late
- diverted to another city
etc

I dont think the airlines would say the current system works well when they recive fines for leaving 5 mins after curfew.


Anyone else care to opine?

 

[Dave Noble]

I guess that's one for "not better" then!

I agree the current system is "well defined" however:

I dont think pax affected would say the current system "works well" when they have to either :
- circle sydney for an hour waiting to land
- cant depart becuase they're 5 mins late
- diverted to another city
etc

I dont think the airlines would say the current system works well when they recive fines for leaving 5 mins after curfew.


Anyone else care to opine?

There are benefits in having an airport v v close to the city centre ( which Sydney airport is ) ; with the benefit of it being so close, then not unreasonable to have restrictions which restricts traffic overnight

I am not aware of any flights which are scheduled to depart so close to the curfew that a 5 minute delay would impact

Circling Sydney to land can be limited by flying at a slower speed and/or not departing the origin so early where possible

Diverting to another city can be limited by not departing unless there is enough time to get to the destination before curfew

I am quite happy with the current situation and like that it is well defined and not very open to trying to bend the rules and avoid them

Departing 5 minutes late is a deliberate intent to ignore the curfew restrictions and (imo) should actually be prohibited rather than just fined

Even if an aeroplane did land an hour early or late, do you think that passengers would be overly happy to wait until (say) 6am for immigration staff and baggage handlers to start work anyway?

Dave

 

[docjames]

All fair points Dave, however it would seem given the "green" push it would be better to have the plane fly at the most fuel efficient speed (and land early and shut down) than fly slower/faster because of an arbitary curfew.

Given the large number of long haul flights, the departure may occur with intent to arrive on time but subsequently not make it.

Also, what about a trans-pac that is focred to land due to medical emergency in NAN, but then cant get to SYD due to curfew, forcing crew an pax to overnight in NAN. Or an empty plane to fly there to pick them up. Doesnt seem very efficient if it can get dispensation to land after curfew.

I'm not suggesting schedules to run to 5 mins from curfew (airlines would be crazy - they'd use up their allocation within weeks), but for a pax to endure a 60 min delay as maintenance tries to repair an a/c then be told "sorry we didnt make the curfew" is pretty infuriating, especially if the a/c is made serviceable and could go.



I guess my point is:

If everything goes according to plan, a curfew is fine and works well. Unfortunately, things dont always go to plan, and I guess i'm advocating a reasonable solution to be in place for when best laid plans go awry.

 

[WWTFC]

We live under the flight path for the shorter east/west runway at Adelaide and did not qualify for the noise reduction insulation scheme for homes under the pathways - we get a little noise when planes landing from the east -mostly the rural commuter planes -Rex etc. and occasionally a Qantas or Virgin service.

We bought our house knowing we are close to the airport. Also knowing there was a 7 hour curfew from 11pm to 6am for passenger flights.

We can hear the planes at 5:45 as they start up/taxi ready to leave dead on 6am.

I reckon commonsense needs to play a part and i understand depending on circumstances approval my be given to land within curfew times. It was strictly applied a few weeks ago at Adelaide when permission was denied whereas common sense would have said to me let them landed at 11:05pm for the sake of the passengers and crew but fine them for leaving where-ever too close 'to the wind'.

Seems to me that departing for Adelaide or Sydney should always have extra time so as to not have to worry about curfew cut off and would still be ok if a delay occurred at departing end.

For Adelaide would be happier with 11:15/11:30pm Adelaide time to 6:30am so they dont start the engines til after 6 in the morning.

Col D

 

[Hvr]

Did anyone say "vexatious"?

Or even querulent?

 

[markis10]

For Adelaide would be happier with 11:15/11:30pm Adelaide time to 6:30am so they dont start the engines til after 6 in the morning.

Col D

Problem being the business pax want the early departure to ensure a productive day on the east coast, a 6AM departure allows for an 8AM arrival in MEL for instance, just as we have 5AM departures in BNE during the summer months for the same reason.

 

[auriga]

I reckon commonsense needs to play a part and i understand depending on circumstances approval my be given to land within curfew times. It was strictly applied a few weeks ago at Adelaide when permission was denied whereas common sense would have said to me let them landed at 11:05pm for the sake of the passengers and crew but fine them for leaving where-ever too close 'to the wind'.

I agree with this.

 

[Dave Noble]

I reckon commonsense needs to play a part and i understand depending on circumstances approval my be given to land within curfew times. It was strictly applied a few weeks ago at Adelaide when permission was denied whereas common sense would have said to me let them landed at 11:05pm for the sake of the passengers and crew but fine them for leaving where-ever too close 'to the wind'.

So.. How about setting the curfew to 22:30 with discretion to allow landings to land until 23:00 if there are extenuating circumstances. That way the airlines have to plan to land by 22:30 but there is some leeway to handle exceptions

Or, there could be a hard n fast limit at 23:00 as it is now and then expect it to be enforced. If an airline decides to fly "close to the wind" on timing, then it is the airline that takes the risk

Dave

 

[harvyk]

Sorry Dave, I completely disagree with you on this one...

Two things are at play here, first of all in most cases (BNE is the exception) the various airports have been there longer than just about everyone else. Thus people have made an active choice to live near an airport, be it for convenience (eg a frequent flyer) or for financial reasons (eg cheap housing).

Second of all, not every flight goes according to plan. On paper a strict curfew works well, in the real world there are delays caused by pax, by a/c's going unservicable, by ground crew, by weather. There are thousands of reasons why an aircraft can't leave at exactly on time to depart or arrive before curfew. This is where a system needs to be in place to allow exceptions. A points system I think is a good one, as it gives the airlines flexability if they require it, it means that pax, crew and a/c's still get to where they need to when an unforseeable delay has happened, and yet it also prevents abuse as should an airline use up their allocation they will need to change their schedules.

 

[oz_mark]

There is an allowance for exceptions, and they are written into the act. The minister provides a set of written guidelines. At this point in time, dispensation can be granted as follows :

To be considered exceptional the circumstances must generally be:

• of immediate origin;
• of such a character that they could not reasonably have been foreseen;
  and
• not reasonably able to be met by alternative arrangements.

 

[Dave Noble]

Sorry Dave, I completely disagree with you on this one...

Two things are at play here, first of all in most cases (BNE is the exception) the various airports have been there longer than just about everyone else. Thus people have made an active choice to live near an airport, be it for convenience (eg a frequent flyer) or for financial reasons (eg cheap housing).

And they have moved there under the knowledge of the restrictions and will have paid for the property accordingly

Second of all, not every flight goes according to plan. On paper a strict curfew works well, in the real world there are delays caused by pax, by a/c's going unservicable, by ground crew, by weather. There are thousands of reasons why an aircraft can't leave at exactly on time to depart or arrive before curfew. This is where a system needs to be in place to allow exceptions. A points system I think is a good one, as it gives the airlines flexability if they require it, it means that pax, crew and a/c's still get to where they need to when an unforseeable delay has happened, and yet it also prevents abuse as should an airline use up their allocation they will need to change their schedules.

Departures can easily be handled in the real world. Leave enough margin in the planned departure time to allow for brief issues. iirc, Qantas's last domestic flight is scheduled 40 mins before curfew which allows some allowance

As far as inbound goes, unless something completely untoward happens, then the flight time can be reasonably predicted and if an airline chooses to take the risk of gambling then they take the risk; they have choices

A points system is the 1st step of salami techniques to erosion of a decent (imo) system of restrictions.

Dave

 

[drron]

What everyone forgets is our capacity to adapt.After years living under Sydneys flightpath and on a busy road when we moved to the country we couldn't sleep for 3 months because it was too bl**dy quiet!