Switzerland, South of France - seeking ideas

[legroom]

In true AFF fashion, we have arranged the flights as the first priority.

Into ZRH and out of CDG with two weeks to spare

But then, the questions arrive. What should be our must-see, must-do along that route ?

Vaguely between Zurich ..... Lyon ..... Paris

We have been in Paris many times FWIW.

Any suggestions of where to stay (? Bern, ? Interlaken), what hotels etc... would be appreciated.

Oh, it would be around Easter 2016.

TIA

 

[anat0l]

I assume you mean that it's two weeks between flying into Zurich then flying out of Paris. This means of the two weeks at your disposal, you will want to set a day or two aside in Paris for its necessary tourist stuff, Parisian fixes, etc. etc.

If you arriving in Easter (i.e. late March, early April), most of the snow should have melted by then (except possibly in some areas higher near glaciers), but the weather will be very pleasant.

If you intend to go via Lyon along the way - and I have no aversion to going to Lyon - trains to Lyon typically will route you through Geneva as the most practical option.

As a follow-on from this, between Zurich and Geneva there is lots to see in between, and allowing for residuals after Lyon and Paris, you're now down to just over a week, assuming there's not many other places in France you wish to go to.

Now what would you like to do whilst you are in Switzerland......immediately if I had to decide just on a whim, I would consider something like this:

• Day 1: Arrive Zurich, do Zurich sightseeing.
• Day 2: Day trip to either Schaffhausen (Rheinfalls), or St Gallen and Lake Constance. Return Zurich or overnight in Chur (whichever one has cheaper accommodation).
• Day 3: Travel to Chur, take Glacier Express to Brig/Visp. Take train to either Interlaken or Bern, depending on accommodation options. Soak in a bit of the city you're staying in the evening.
  • Day 4a: Travel to Zermatt and to the top of the Gornergrat; or
  • Day 4b: Travel to Jungfraujoch.
  Return to accommodation base, or move onto Luzern if accommodation cheaper.
• Day 5: Travel to Luzern. City tour, Swiss Transport Museum, or even Mount Pilatus (or a combination of each). Travel to Geneva.
• Day 6: Spend day in Geneva, then stay until leaving for Lyon next morning or travel to Lyon that evening.

That's just one possibility. Unfortunately, because of time constraints and, in many people's opinions, budget constraints, it's going to be a case of pick some nice things and do them, rather than actually relying on some surefire suggestions. Most of Swiss tourism is focussed on the natural beauty - alps, lovely green environments, hills, and all of that coupled with a pretty reliable train system that makes it all both possible and pleasant. The 6 day plan I've suggested as a sample also works nicely with the Swiss Travel Pass for four consecutive days, priced at CHF 251...I haven't done the absolute math, but on a straight-up guess you'll definitely get your money's worth on this (I would use the pass on Day 2 through to Day 5 inclusive, and buy normal fares for Days 1 and 6).

The Glacier Express is a nice panoramic train through the southern Swiss alps. It's hard to take good photos on a moving train through window panes, but if your immediate interest is not attempting too much or any photography, you'll have a very relaxing 5 hour ride across the alps. You could skip it if you wanted which will give you an extra day to explore somewhere else (then you would simply go the north route from Zurich, e.g. onto Luzern, Bern, Interlaken, etc.)

Swiss Travel Pass gives you unlimited travel on bus, rail and ferry services throughout almost all of Switzerland for its duration. Some services, e.g. special cable cars, rack railways or panoramic services may still require compulsory reservation fees or may only offer a discount rather than inclusive travel. Still, considering a one-way rail ticket from Zurich to Bern is about CHF 60 for a tourist, depending on how much travel you do each day, you can easily make your money back, with the added convenience of not having to worry about buying too many tickets.

You'll find chain hotels generally scarce in Switzerland, especially outside the major centres - Zurich, Geneva, Basel, Bern and Luzern. IHG has a few dotted in the cities; Hilton has only Zurich and Basel (if I'm not mistaken); Accor has a tad more penetration I believe (especially in Geneva).... people say that Zurich and Geneva are almost impossible to find a decent place to stay without an expense account, but you can still find reasonable places around for between CHF 90 - 140 per night. I wouldn't be too set on trying to stay at chain hotels. Note that accommodation in places like Zermatt which are predisposed to be filled by skiers or other sports / terrain-enjoying tourists that are far flung out are likely to be expensive, but if you're set on it, you might want to check the prices anyway.

Feel free to post more questions, but I hope some of that might have piqued your interest.

 

[Anna]

Where do they make Swiss chocolate?

 

[anat0l]

Where do they make Swiss chocolate?

Here is a good start:

Chocolate factories - Switzerland Tourism

All of them are easy day trips as spur line journeys from major centres.

Personally, I'm not much into visiting chocolate factories - just enjoying visiting chocolate shops Sprüngli, Läderach... One thing to keep in mind that Swiss don't really eat chocolate to enjoy its taste; it's more for eating for simple pleasure - it's just that it has to be good quality. Like Italians drinking espresso...

 

[greenfish]

I stumbled across the train du chocolat when eurailing about 25 years ago. Worth a visit if you're fond of chocolate:

Swiss Chocolate Train (Montreux, Switzerland): Address, Scenic Railroad Reviews - TripAdvisor

edit: looks like it only runs from May....

 

[kelvedon]

Adding my 2 cents worth to anat01's extensive local knowledge, do buy a rail pass, (or half price card) as Swiss trains are expensive, but a great way to travel around. For mountain scenery I would definitely stay in Interlaken over Bern. Interlaken is in the Bernese Oberland, where a lot of the "big" mountains are and has good rail connections. Grindelwald is easily accessible from there and is right in front of the Eiger, and a stepping off point for the Jungfrau train . Try and be flexible with the high mountain visits as the weather on that day may mean your view from the top is of the inside of a cloud, though the Jungfrau, Schilthorn, Gronnergrat are so high they can actually be above the clouds. Check their webcams on the day to get some idea.

For a rainy day the Swiss Transport Museum in Luzern is worth a visit and has a Convair Coronado you can go in ( a 707 competitor) as well as a display on the history of Swissair and its Phoenix Swiss, and yes the Swiss do take their chocolate seriously, and if you want to start an argument, ask a group of Swiss which company makes the best chocolate. It's like asking which football team is better!
https://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-holid...nd/swisstravelsystem/swiss-halffare-card.html

 

[legroom]

OMG !

What can I say to express thanks ?

Those posts are like torches for my muddled brain.

I have been fixated with SQ Suite to ZRH and CX F from CDG to the exclusion of everything else.

Guys, I must send you some Swiss chocolate !

 

[Cruiser Elite]

leggy we had a flight on Swiss yesterday - I lifted the in flight magazine for you - chock full of info on Switzerland - pm me your address and I'll drop it into mail for you tomorrow.

 

[JohnM]

The route from ZRH-CDG could go anywhere with two weeks to kill. Personally, I'd rent a car (on the proviso that a huge one-way fee could be avoided).

Agree about Zermatt and taking the Gornergrat (NB. early morning to beat the crowds is recommended) to scope out the Matterhorn, Interlaken and checking the webcams before going up to Pilatus/Jungfrau. Not much to see if they're in the clouds .

If you rent a car and drive, Zermatt is car-free. You need to park the car in the multi-level parking station at the Tasch station and train from there. Plenty of electric taxis operate in Zermatt.

A loop down to Chamonix (the jump-off point for Mont Blanc) is highly recommended. Take a helicopter flight up the glacial valleys over Mt Blanc for something sensational.

Why not then slip up to Beaune and scope out Burgundy, move on through Vezelay (mustering point for the crusaders and a lovely place to stay - but up in the village at the cathedral), Chablis (nice little town but make it a lunch stop, not an overnight IMO) and up to Epernay/Reims in Champagne. Then it's a lazy run into CDG on the motorway without going into Paris.

 

[moa999]

The one-month Swiss travel pass also worth looking at (chf120 for 50% off fares - pays for itself on Jungfraujoch line).

Quite a nice Lindt shop on top of Jungfraujoch as well

 

[anat0l]

The one-month Swiss travel pass also worth looking at (chf120 for 50% off fares - pays for itself on Jungfraujoch line).

The "Swiss travel pass" you are referring to here is the Swiss Half-Fare Card (for tourists), which, as you say, costs CHF 120 and entitles the holder to 50% off most bus, rail and ferry fares in Switzerland for a month. Almost every Swiss resident, if they don't already have a GA or AG, will have a Half-Fare Card (but it costs differently for residents versus tourists) - someone remarked to me before that there are only 4 types of people in Switzerland who don't own a Half-Fare Card: tourists, those with a GA/AG, the poor and the stupid.

Travelling to Jungfraujoch is a bit of an effort. It involves:

• Getting to Interlaken (specifically, the station Interlaken Ost)
• Taking a train to Lauterbrunnen (you can also go via Grindenwald, but I went via Lauterbrunnen as the view is supposed to be slightly better). Lauterbrunnen itself is a nice little village, although you may not have the time to have a stroll through, depending on how you plan your day.
• From Lauterbrunnen, take the train to Kleine Scheidegg. This is the first of two rack-and-pinion rail services to get to Jungfraujoch.
• Once at Kleine Scheidegg, you can take the final train to Jungfraujoch, reportedly the highest railway station in Europe (Gornergrat, also Swiss, is the second highest).

The travel time from Interlaken Ost to Jungfraujoch is 2h 17m. The cost of the journey depends on what passes you have. Return fares between Interlaken Ost and Jungfraujoch on the same day:

• No discounts at all: CHF 204.40
• Half-Fare Card discount: CHF 102.20
• Swiss Travel Pass (or day travelcard): CHF 85.00

As concluded, a trip to Jungfrau will almost certainly cement the savings from the Half-Fare Card (because there will be other travel before and after that), but depending on how much travel is done each day, it would be wise to look at the Swiss Travel Pass (either continuous or Flex, i.e. non-connected days). The disadvantage with the Swiss Travel Pass is that they are limited to 3-, 4-, 8- and 15-day variants. So you can potentially save a great deal with them if you are travelling far and wide - which is entirely possible - but you need some astute planning, too. The Half-Fare Card may not necessarily save you as much, but you can afford to be slightly more flexible with your time and commitments.

Oh, and don't worry about buying your Swiss Travel Pass or Half Fare Card in advance of arriving in Switzerland. These are easily purchased from the SBB CFF FFS office in Zurich Airport (in the adjoining commercial centre on top of Zurich Airport train station). The cost is no more expensive, and the agents at the office speak English and can give you some guides on usage.

These may be worth considering: Eurail France-Switzerland Pass – Travel Europe By Train | Eurail.com
The thing is, my hunch tells me you'd still be better just buying a Swiss pass and then individual tickets in France. If you were travelling all throughout France (similar to when you were in Switzerland), the EU Rail pass may be worth it.

Notes about Swiss Railways fares

If you are purchasing tickets for each journey rather than using a travel card or Travel Pass, rail tickets are generally valid for the whole day. For example, if you purchase a standard railway ticket between Zurich and Bern (with or without a Half-Fare discount), you do not need to select a specific train to catch - you buy a general ticket for that route and then it is valid for the entire day you nominate for travel, so you can catch any train (or set of trains, but must be on a direct route). Note that tickets within local fare zones may have shorter validity than same day (e.g. 1 hour). Also note that in the major cities, some hotels will give you a local transport pass good for all modes of transport for the duration of your stay.

There are also Supersaver tickets available, which offer up to 50% discount from the standard price (and with a Half-Fare Card reduction, you can save even more money). These can only be booked online at sbb.ch or using the SBB mobile app. They are normally released about 2-3 weeks before date of travel, they are not released on all lines nor on all services, and you can only find out if there is any availability of them by trying to book and see if you are offered any such tickets. Unlike standard tickets, Supersaver tickets are tied to a specific service (or set of services where connecting trains are involved) - they are completely non-changeable and non-refundable. If you miss your train(s) for any reason, your Supersaver ticket is forfeited and you must buy a new ticket.

Most travel is based on an open gate system (rather than closed), so make sure you always purchase your ticket before the departure of your service. Ticket inspectors patrol most trains; you will be fined on the spot and details noted if you fail to produce your valid ticket (plus any discount passes).

Most ticket inspectors, ticket office and train staff can speak English, even if limited. Information announcements at stations, platforms and in the train, however, are typically only announced in the local languages depending on which regions you are travelling through.

Quite a nice Lindt shop on top of Jungfraujoch as well

There is also a nice Lindt shop - similar in style (not as homely though, and not necessarily with as many flavours of Lindt Lindor balls available) - at the Swiss Transport Museum in Luzern.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

With only two weeks I think you need to decide how much time in Switerland and how much in France including allowing for transit time.

If you want more time in France than Switzerlaad then just do Luzen with Mt Pilatus. 2 -3 nights should allow you to select a day to go up when there are no or less clouds, otherwise there is no view.

For longer in Switzerland see the excellent posts above.

 

[legroom]

Due to work commitments I was unable to attend to these arrangements until now. So thankful for all the great tips.

anat0l

I am now up to the Glacier Express !

2 nights in Zurich
2 nights in Interlaken

..........

I am working my way out of this muddle slowly - with your help, of course.

another 10 nights or so to be allocated somewhere

Q:

Even though I mention Lyon but what we are really after is some authentic French countryside (the stuff you see with Tour de France...).

Any tip(s) there would be most appreciated.

Much appreciated - as usual

 

[Anna]

Legroom is your trip going ahead at Easter? What itinerary did you decide on?

I'm going in June. Trying to decide which would be more cost effective - buying a full 15 day 2nd class Swiss Pass travel card, or the half-fare one month card.

 

[anat0l]

Trying to decide which would be more cost effective - buying a full 15 day 2nd class Swiss Pass travel card, or the half-fare one month card.

Only decent way to do it is to sit down with SBB online and work out how much your planned itinerary is going to cost with the half-fare card (i.e. selecting that discount option when obtaining the price of each leg). Tedious, but that's what it'll take.

If your planned cost of tickets with half-fare plus CHF 120 exceeds CHF 440, then you're better off taking the Swiss Pass for 2 weeks. If your travel is more than 2 weeks then this calculation may change, i.e. you need to factor in the cost of more tickets on top of the Swiss Pass scenario outside of the 2 weeks you intend to use it.

The Swiss Pass works out to approximately CHF 30 per day. The Swiss Pass will easily win over the half-fare card if you are doing quite a bit of long distance travel, especially to alpine regions. For example, a return ticket between Interlaken and Zermatt will cost CHF 81 return on the half-fare card (half that for a one way, e.g. if you are staying in Zermatt). As you move between cities, these can also eat up quite a bit of the cost, although to counter that, travel within a city will more often than not come close to "using up" the daily average value of the Pass (i.e. many daily tickets for travel within most cities would be about CHF 10-15 at most).

There are some private or special services (especially scenic alpine railways or cable car rides) that are not fully inclusive on the Swiss Pass, although the Pass (as well as the half-fare card) will grant a discount (mostly 50%) of the normal fare.

 

[Anna]

If your planned cost of tickets with half-fare plus CHF 120 exceeds CHF 440, then you're better off taking the Swiss Pass for 2 weeks. If your travel is more than 2 weeks then this calculation may change, i.e. you need to factor in the cost of more tickets on top of the Swiss Pass scenario outside of the 2 weeks you intend to use it.

Thanks anat0l. At about 18-19 days touring around, the calculation is currently doing my head in Not planning any trips to see Alpine scenery specifically.

On the following train trips, is it worth it to go first class rather than second class? - ZRH to Buchs SG return, ZRH to Luzern return, ZRH to Interlaken one way, Lausanne to Geneva one way? What would I get in 1st that I wouldn't get in 2nd on those trains?

 

[anat0l]

Thanks anat0l. At about 18-19 days touring around, the calculation is currently doing my head in Not planning any trips to see Alpine scenery specifically.

If you shoot me a PM with a rough itinerary, I could do some rough calculations for you.

On the following train trips, is it worth it to go first class rather than second class? - ZRH to Buchs SG return, ZRH to Luzern return, ZRH to Interlaken one way, Lausanne to Geneva one way? What would I get in 1st that I wouldn't get in 2nd on those trains?

As always, it is your choice ultimately if you want (or need) first class over second.

Note that travel in first class requires either a first class travel pass, first class travel ticket or upgrade surcharge ticket.

First class essentially will give you:

• A dedicated seating area away from second class, where most people will sit.
• Since less people ride in first, obviously it will feel more tranquil.
• Seats are larger, i.e. wider (less seats per row) and more leg room. This is true on most main line trains.

Apart from that, nothing else. No free food or drink, no discounts at the restaurant, you access the same restaurant with the same food available (assuming restaurant car is available on your train), no access to any special lounges at the stations (access to SBB Lounges is only for selected international first class trips and, I think, GA holders). First class doesn't entitle you to a free seat reservation, so if you want to reserve a seat you still need to pay extra / separately to do so. That said, unlike in Germany, hardly anyone reserves seats in Switzerland anyway, unless forced to by rules of the train service (only special trains and most international services need seat reservations).

All of the trips you have mentioned are just about around 1 hour one-way. The longest of those is probably Zurich to Buchs. For that reason, I probably wouldn't bother with first class myself. Sometimes if I'd had enough of the day and was travelling during a predicted period of high occupancy in second class, I might pay the upgrade charge to go to first for a 2 hour journey. At one hour, I might just grin and bear it; I might have regretted that during a train ride between Bern and Zurich Airport where it was full to the brim in second class and I had to stand holding onto a flimsy shelf for one hour, but at least there were no intermediate stops and due to the timing of it all I had no chance nor time to consider upgrading to first class anyway.

One little "hack" is that if you want to sit rather comfortably in what would look like a far too crowded second class, if your train has a restaurant car, try and find a table in the restaurant. You can order yourself something small like a coffee, or coffee and cake. It'll cost you CHF 5 - 10 for it, but that's probably less than the first class surcharge anyway and you'll have a more private and comfortable seat (just take your time eating and drinking). The Starbucks special long distance trains are particularly comfortable in the bespoke restaurant car. If you do this "hack", it's best to do so fairly early after boarding, i.e. check down the aisles at the occupancy, and if you really don't feel like sitting in the crowded second class car, go straightaway towards the restaurant car.

First class car on a typical IC train.


Second class car on a typical ICN train. The seating configuration is virtually the same on both IC and ICN trains. ICN trains might feel a tad bit narrower.

 

[Anna]

Thanks anat0l, you've helped me make up my mind. I'll get a half fare card, which will leave me free to buy first class if I feel like it and it's available on that service

 

[Simo]

Sounds like heaps of good suggestion coming your way

 

[peanutz]

I don't know much about Switzerland but I do like France. I visited a few areas there: Burgundy, Bordeaux, Loire Valley, Provence, Paris, and Dordogne. My memory of these areas are varied influenced by activities I did, I think.

Dordogne is very nice. Fantastic food - think truffle & foie gras. Luckily, I did a walking tour to burn off those good food I ate. The walks were so nice and lovely. I love this area. Sarlat also has a massive market.

I did a boat trip along canal in Burgundy. The weather wasn't ideal, rain all the time, and we had some hiccup with public holidays where everything closed and we ran out of food on the boat Towns we visited, food we ate, and wines we tasted compensate that

Provence is lovely as well but I think I need to explore this area a bit more. There are so many beautiful small villages/towns.

Loire Valley and Bordeaux, I guess are not South of France so I probably shouldn't make a comment.