Should Qantas open more award seats to Points Club members?

[JohnK]

That’s the thing... it probably would exist without BIS passengers. QFFF makes money from selling points to banks, businesses, hotels, you name it. And in buying toasters and selling them for a mark-up.

Without the airline QFF would be similar to Flybuys and there'd be no such thing as awards but rather the ability to buy toasters, buy flights or transfer to airline.

In my opinion Qantas should not be providing additional benefits by way of opening up awards exclusive to Points Club members.

 

[DaveB]

QF currently receives 13.2% of my OS points redemption bookings only reaching double digits with their wide body availability to AKL.
If QF is serious in trying to capture business owner's points without POing existing troops, they should reintroduce a form of J/FASA's in order for those redeeming on points to be able to to gain status credits using points. These seats could be much more available than reward seats though require a higher points burn of say 20-30%.
The joke is though as always flying J or F, the status doesn't provide any benefit other than auto entry to the Flounges though in any event they typically prefer to minimise their travel time.

 

[RichardMEL]

There IS "a form of J/FASA's... ie: 100% points for flight bookings. Sure, it will cost you hundreds of thousands of points(ore north of 1mil) but it still exists!

*duck & cover*

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Benefits should be in proportion to the value added. The FF program exists to increase revenue for Qantas.

I think it is ridiculous to think that only BIS add value when clearly the selling of points by Qantas is very lucrative to them. Qantas would struggle to exist in its current form without this revenue, and no doubt many of the FF benefits that BIS flyers enjoy would not be as ample as they currently now without the sale of such points.

It should not be that hard for the bean-counters to work out what a fair rate of point earn is for what benefits. I mean Y passengers can get into Business and F lounges without having to buy J or F Tickets. The concept is not really any different to work out a range of benefits for point earn based on revenue gained for Qantas by non-flying means.

I also suspect that those bean-counters may have been noticing that point revenues have been leaching off to SQ as awareness of their program grows and are seeking ways to halt such losses and grow their revenues.

The genie is out of the bottle. Qantas likes selling points, as it is profitable, and wants to sell more of them.

 

[RichardMEL]

Benefits should be in proportion to the value added. The FF program exists to increase revenue for Qantas.

I think it is ridiculous to think that only BIS add value when clearly the selling of points by Qantas is very lucrative to them. Qantas would struggle to exist in its current form without this revenue, and no doubt many of the FF benefits that BIS flyers enjoy would not be as ample as they currently now without the sale of such points.

It should not be that hard for the bean-counters to work out what a fair rate of point earn is for what benefits. I mean Y passengers can get into Business and F lounges without having to buy J or F Tickets. The concept is not really any different to work out a range of benefits for point earn based on revenue gained for Qantas by non-flying means.

Sure, and how do they do that? Either buy lounge access passes (or have guest passes through their CC or Silver staus) or they have Status through flying.

I also suspect that those bean-counters may have been noticing that point revenues have been leaching off to SQ as awareness of their program grows and are seeking ways to halt such losses and grow their revenues.

I am interested in why you pick SQ in particular? Yes SQ has one of the best products out of Oz, but KF is not the best program (IMO) and has limited earnings potential in Australia (but def non zero) in terms of ground sources - cards, partners etc - when compared with QF or VA.

The genie is out of the bottle. Qantas likes selling points, as it is profitable, and wants to sell more of them.

Sure, and that's fine.

They can still do this (and spruik more toasters) just fine with the points club.

The question is about offering more availability of reward seats to PC members though not about what earns QF more.

While I can absolutely see QF wants to keep ALL its sources of revenue (cough "loyalty") as much as possible, they need to be very careful they do not piss off the actual people who fly with them THAT much that they do turn to VA, SQ, UA or whoever.

As discussed over and over it's hard enough to find availability fo those with status let alone the CC churners out there.

And let's not forget all the other partners taking reward space - a lot of them doing more or less the same thing (card churning, buying discounted miles etc). I know people who ONLY travel doing this and do not care about status if they can always get into J and F - which makes sense when they can plan out a year or more in advance to snag the seats they want.

Throw yet more into the mix?

I think the program as suggested to reward the PC crowd with things like Valet Park and Lounge passes is a even smarter game for QF - you give away "benefits" that ensure for them to be used it ensures MORE revenue spend by the recipient to use such things - and even if it's them spending their points to take the kids to The Gold Coast it's still revenue, and a reduction in liability at the same time, then so much the better - if the PC club brigade don't use those passes or valet park then QF loses nothing (spillage) and it's not their fault if the offered perk is not used.

Sure, offering extra F or J seats may provide the same thing (and reduce more liability) but you'll add those into a scarce pool of availability with high demand? Then your Plats and Golds could be reasonably upset if Jue Churner gets a seat and they miss out even with status.. That's not exactly fair

of course as I noted earlier on.. life is far from fair

 

[Lynda2475]

reward the PC crowd with things like Valet Park and Lounge passes is a even smarter game for QF - you give away "benefits" that ensure for them to be used it ensures MORE revenue spend by the recipient to use such things - and even if it's them spending their points to take the kids to The Gold Coast it's still revenue, and a reduction in liability at the same time

This - given them some perks, but not preferential access to reward seats over those that actually pay to fly.

I flew an awful lot of SYD-MEL on discount Y and was smart with personal travel bookings last year and just managed to scrape into Gold with 799 SCs last month for first time ever. I've just spent days looking at creative routing to finally secure Classic J reward for next June/July - it was nearly impossible, would be that much harder if all the non flyers were also competing 11 months out.

I'll probably be back to bronze next August as work travel has all but dried up and my two main personal trips this FF year are classic rewards so no SC earn. So i'll churn a few cards but unless very lucky I'll hold those points until im flying more again and hopefully get status back to be able to actually book another J (or even F) reward.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I am interested in why you pick SQ in particular? Yes SQ has one of the best products out of Oz, but KF is not the best program

Well I might be entirely wrong but reading this forum many of the big point "buyers" have moved to mainly earning points that go to KF.

On is not the best program. I am talking here of points buyers and not those who buy tickets (or have companies buy them. Those that fly a lot with bought tickers are also obviously concerned with status (Just as I used to be when I was mainly flying with Ansett , or after that with Qantas asa Flight Warrior.

The Amex devaluation has reduced the advantage, but for the points buyer it still makes a lot more sense for many (subject to where you want to fly) to move points to KF . (ie less points, no fuel fines, better J/F availability and easier to get 2 or more J tckets per flight).

(IMO) and has limited earnings potential in Australia (but def non zero) in terms of ground sources - cards, partners etc - when compared with QF or VA.

I personally collect points in whichever FF programs generates myself the best return and so use all of KF, QFF and Velocity. Sticking to one program is not optimal for many, but can be for some. I assume many other people do too.


PS: I am not a points buying whale as I don't have business with huge cashflows. But yes I am an avid points collector.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Sure, offering extra F or J seats may provide the same thing (and reduce more liability) but you'll add those into a scarce pool of availability with high demand? Then your Plats and Golds could be reasonably upset if Jue Churner gets a seat and they miss out even with status.. That's not exactly fair

of course as I noted earlier on.. life is far from fair

Lack of Award availability at QFF is essentially because of lack of FF program competition rather than supply of seats. QFF gets away with running a poor value program due to this.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I flew an awful lot of SYD-MEL on discount Y and was smart with personal travel bookings last year and just managed to scrape into Gold with 799 SCs last month for first time ever. I've just spent days looking at creative routing to finally secure Classic J reward for next June/July - it was nearly impossible, would be that much harder if all the non flyers were also competing 11 months out.

With respect to your recent itineraries I'm not actually sure your gold status has much of an influence. Your gold status *may* have helped with your QF flight to HKG, but AFAIK EK, JL etc makes no difference what your QFFF status is. They either release them to QF (and anyone can get them) or they don't. (Someone with more experience may chime in on that, but that's my understanding).

 

[RichardMEL]

I would suspect as many "points buyers" are heavily into AS as much as KF, but there are different values and targets there. Likely people heavily engaged in churns and buying would spread the love to have multiple options. LifeMiles(LM) is another popular one for Star Alliance redemptions.

I absolutely agree it's not smart to put all eggs in one program. I certainly do not.

 

[BD1959]

I'm not sure how you'd measure "frequent spend" for status since "buying points" via a Hotel (for example) probably yields a different revenue ratio to QFF than buying a can of coke at Woollies. How do you measure then how "worthy" someone has been to the QFF scheme over a 12month period without being transparent on the rate at which businesses buy those points?

That said, now that Qantas has created the PC shouldn't they be more transparent on how they see each side of their scheme operating going forward?

Whilst the Grinch in me says that there's no way that QFF should open additional (scarce) Award availability to someone who has earned 100,000 points merely by executing their existing CC spend in a different way, compared with a WP who earns 100,000 points through 62 (and a half!) return SYD-MEL trips in Discount Y, I do see the merit of maybe allowing extra benefits - including *some* release.

*if* you could measure PC status (and it may already be there ... such is my interest) then I don't see why why Qantas couldn't open ALL the distressed inventory RichardMEL discusses - but not restrained to Y - to the "elites" of both the flying ARM and the PC ARM of the QFF scheme just before departure.

To them though an reward seat is a reward seat - if they offer it up as distressed inventory then they're assuming nobody will pay for it, and they are happy to get some yield for it in terms of the points paid. Fine. From that point of view they don't care where those points come from, so why not keep the status quo (see how I used Status there? ) and keep SOME meaning to the alleged benefit of attaining status? There's way more demand for reward seats on popular routes then supply so people with actual flying related status should have first dibs.

Now, I quite like the idea of extra Y rewards for points club

<snip>

That way you'd keep your Frequent Flyers happy - they still get first dibs at 355. You provide a (limited but distinct) benefit to the "elite" of PC with the millions of points to burn - but don't alienate the Frequent Flyers. You'd keep the QF Bean-Counters happy since distressed inventory gets some revenue. The ones you're likely to PO are those who currently use the Lounges for Upgrade on Departure - this availability would likely disappear.

Thoughts?

Regards,

BD

 

[Ekka]

IMO - no

If they did this then what is the point of earning status by actually flying in their metal tubs (and payinf for it obviously).

Sorry but if it's between me who's flown XX sectors this year and gotten a certain level of status and someone who earnings points buying property and LV handbags and whaever, churning CC's and all the rest then frankly I see no reason why they should get an advantage.

I think the idea of the points club to give some bits and pieces away like a lounge pass or valet parking or whatever is quite good. Doesn't cost QF much but doesn't sabotage the opportunities for the hard FLYING warriors

Disagree.

At last - and at least - Qantas is trying to do something about points versus status credits, and good on them.
You - or your company - may have spent a lot of money amassing your status credits, but you dismiss those who have also spent a great deal of money in other ways, which has earnt them Qantas points but no status credits.

Let's say you - or your company - has spent a hundred grand flying you around Australia or the world over the last year; why are you more important to the airline then the person who has spent a hundred grand and accumulated a hell of a lot of points? Why exactly should he or she not get as many status credits as your good self? The airline has probably earnt more from the non-flyer's activity than from yours.

Answer: you're not, even if you are unhappy about it. Put yourself in the other person's shoes.

 

[RichardMEL]

Whoa sparky (I mean Ekka) settle down.

I did not dismiss ANYONE.. nor did I write, or suggest (at least not my intent) that I, or anyone with status, was "better" than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... Do people spend $100k on "ground spend" to just accrue points in a FF scheme? The CC churners and people signing on to , for example, Aus Super for the bonus, in general aren't spending money ONLY to accrue points just for the purpose of travel. There probably are a small number but I doubt it. Sure, someone may by those exxy LV bags with a 10pts/$ spend deal at DJ's or something when it comes up, but I suspect if someone has that much disposable income to spend on goods and services, it's likely ther main fosuc is not really earning points to redeem on J or F flights - likely they could purpose them revenue if they really wanted.

And I've been that no status flyer with points and you know what? I don't think someone with FF status is "better" than me or something, but I do feel they deserve the benefits of the FLYING status on.. you know.. flights - and by extention, redemption opportunities.

I'd lso suspect the people buying F and J tickets are providing higher yield than the ground spenders, but I don't have the data to back that up. After all while a bank or DJ's or whoever pay QF cents in the $ to provide those points, if I buy a full fare F fare the yield to QF in pure revenue is going to be way more than that IMO.

And for the record, I do zero paid for my busines travel. Not that that's relevant, but you've implied that I have status potentially through an employer paying and in my case personally I don't (but that's not really relevant to the point).

 

[Mogul]

The picture is a lot bigger than everyone is looking at.

QF make a LOT of money out of selling points, the more points they sell the more they make. In order to do this they offer incentives for the public to join and participate in the programme. By doing this they are also potentially dragging customers away from other programmes such as VFF, etc. The more members they have the more they can charge for points, the more money they make. Once people are aligned with a programme I would think very few would change (the audience here is not your average punter) unless there were some big incentives offered.

It's also about getting BIS and away from using their competitors using whatever means they think will benefit themselves. If people have a good experience after a rewards flight they will be more likely to fly QF again using $$$$.

I can't believe people still think that loyalty programmes are their for the members to benefit, they are not they are only there to benefit the company running the programme.

QF are simply looking at the bottom dollar and how they can make more and if this upsets some of their loyal customers they don't care.

Points Club members should get an extra benefit for those earning a lot of points as QF is still making money out of them. What exactly the benefit should be I not sure.

As someone who hasn't paid for a flight for a very long time due my ability to earn a lot of points, why shouldn't I have some extra benefits over someone who saves up for a flight for 5 or so years ? I would like to see the programme offer increased award availability for those who earn a large number of points each year through CC and other spend.

Maybe:

Bronze 0 - 200,000 points per year

Silver 200,001 - 750,000 points per year

Gold 750,001 - 1,500,000 points per year

Platinum 1,500,001 and above points per year

Award availability to be the same as BIS flyer's.

 

[RichardMEL]

I can't believe people still think that loyalty programmes are their for the members to benefit, they are not they are only there to benefit the company running the programme.

QF are simply looking at the bottom dollar and how they can make more and if this upsets some of their loyal customers they don't care.

Agree on both counts. "Loyalty" programs have never been about rewarding us as members - but levereging us to extract the most they can from us by means of "loyalty" - and as technology and CRM type systems get smarter, data mining/big data and so on get smarter in tern "we"(customers) are sold to other companies/partners to market to and extract more $$$ from. Absolutely.

And sure they don't care it's about money.

My responses in this thread have been focused on the original question "Should QF open up more reward seats to PC members" - with the sub tangent of that would such reward seats be in addition to, or have priority over rewards requests for FLYING status members.

This is a different argument to how QF sees us cash cows and how much they make from us and our different forms of spending. Obviously the two are connected and interrelated in numbers of ways.

As we know QFF have spent the past number of years pushing ways to spend the points we have accrued - toasters, iphones, use on paying for hotels, luxury escapes etc - all of these they make a profit on too as the value/point is far less than whatever the internal value is and there's the yield. They'd love nothing more, I am sure, if we all bought Dsons and booked rooms at Hiltons with our points.

Though now this thread, which until more info is actually provided about the PC is mostly hypothetical, the iissues return to those buying(more or less) points through spend. Not terribly different in many respects to programs like AS selling miles directly to punters.

The difference is that QF is, by means of this PC, looking to tie that in and - as you say - lock in the PC punters with "rewards" - the nature f which have only been hinted at from what I can tell.

Points Club members should get an extra benefit for those earning a lot of points as QF is still making money out of them. What exactly the benefit should be I not sure.

As someone who hasn't paid for a flight for a very long time due my ability to earn a lot of points, why shouldn't I have some extra benefits over someone who saves up for a flight for 5 or so years ? I would like to see the programme offer increased award availability for those who earn a large number of points each year through CC and other spend.

ah so one should be given more due to their relative wealth?

(that's not having a go but that's kind of what that boils down to).

Seriously though there are now two separate arguments here as I see them:

1. Relative benefits of more points earn - so should a more frequent "shopper"(for want of a term)
2. Benefits of more points earn in the PC vs. benefits of those earning BIS flying status

Two quite different things I think.

I agree with you that it' a bit nebulous what "benefits" one should receive for more frequent "shopp[er" status.
As I've commented multiple times already I do still feel actual BIS status should still trump frequent shopper earn.

Maybe:

Bronze 0 - 200,000 points per year

Silver 200,001 - 750,000 points per year

Gold 750,001 - 1,500,000 points per year

Platinum 1,500,001 and above points per year

Award availability to be the same as BIS flyer's.

So are you equating these levels to be basically QFF status levels awarded for the spend?

AA used to award lower levels of status IIRC based on CC spend. I think that may have stopped.
I know the uber-elite levels of Concierge Key and UA Global Services were revenue based (eg: spend $30k USD a year or something) but again that is on flights not other services, so that's a separate conncept - but definitely rewarding the heaviest spenders with their own status level actually higher than those reachable by the usual means.

I could see the merits to a certain extent of say offering up to Gold level for xyz sped - I mean one can get status thrown in with some loyalty (airline, hotel etc) programs with associated CC membership/spend.

I would not like to see higher levels of status awarded to frequent spenders - that would benefit the business spender (though I suppose to be realistic anyone spending a lot of $$$ tied in with QBR and the rest would likely fly and have status anyway).

I do appreciate there are those like you that use the points earned from normal transactions - possibly business related - to then pay for reward flights. As I noted earlier I know several people who live this life, or at least the life of a miles buyer then redeeming them for the flights they want.

I guess I am grappling with the idea that someone who can earn a lot of points without flying could potentially get access to reward seats that long term BIS flyers earn. I also recognise that wasn't the original question

Again QF don't care it's all $$$ to them.

As a counter, what if PC "elite" levels generated a discount on points paid rewards (what MASA's have become) ? if someone's points rich perhaps say OK pay for this revenue seat with your points, but we'll give you a 25%/50% discount based on your PC status?


This is all fun conjecture and talk of course - I think the one thing we can ALL agree on is that whatever they do with the PC it is likely to be underwhealming for ALL of the consumers and probably provide "benefits" t that many at the higher spend levels probably wouldn't have a lot of use for. It will be interesting to see, but I doubt we'll se a lot of radical things. I await to be surprised though

 

[Limewood]

Im a former Plat/Gold member now a lowly bronze, yet our spend which provides about 350k+ QFF points PA is far greater cost than when I was flying with status and its many perks. I'd be more than happy to be able to see and book more of those elusive Int. flights from OZ instead of departing from ASIA where most J award flights are available long haul on many OneWorld Airlines.

 

[Pushka]

Im a former Plat/Gold member now a lowly bronze, yet our spend which provides about 350k+ QFF points PA is far greater cost than when I was flying with status and its many perks. I'd be more than happy to be able to see and book more of those elusive Int. flights from OZ instead of departing from ASIA where most J award flights are available long haul on many OneWorld Airlines.

But when purchasing flights it’s Qantas that gets the full amount whereas with cards, it’s shared. Also unless you are buying extras you might probably have been purchasing those things anyway so the only thing that’s changed is that you are flying less. So how does that benefit Qantas?

 

[Clayton]

In reality Qantas issues way more points than can be redeemed on their flights, so to a degree they are writing cheques that can't be cashed for full value. Which in other businesses is illegal.
The upside is they have some partners that offer excellent points redemption opportunities, albeit only by knowing to book extremely early or very late. And also requiring long positioning flights to Asia to access the redemption.

 

[Limewood]

Well Pushka it is annoying being loyal to Qantas when they make $ off my spending, but I rarely find J seats for 2 out of OZ and hope they do release more to bods like me.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But when purchasing flights it’s Qantas that gets the full amount whereas with cards, it’s shared. Also unless you are buying extras you might probably have been purchasing those things anyway so the only thing that’s changed is that you are flying less. So how does that benefit Qantas?

It benefits QF because they are selling the points to banks/cards/businesses for 1c (or more? AFAIK the going rate is USD0.01 per point, so maybe they get more in Australia?)

If QF offers 'status' through Points Club, more people will buy from businesses (or bank or CCs) that offer QF points. That's an incentive for those businesses. They buy more points. Qantas sells more points. Everyone makes a profit.